I've got to ask.....

I am sitting here wasting a few minutes reading this forum while scarfing my lunch down. As I read through some of the threads I am finding it hard to eat as my jaw keeps hitting the ground.

So, my question is this. Why do you keep hots? Is for the thrill of keeping something this dangerous? Is it simply for their looks? What attracted you to them?

I keep various boa's because I truly do enjoy holding them, showing them to various groups etc. They are pets as well as a nice way of making some extra income.

I just cannot see myself ever keeping a hot. Just the sheer thought of being tagged by one is enough of a deterent for me to never own one. So, I thought I would ask what attracted you to keeping them? Just curious how other minds work.

Griz

While you may very well be genuine in your interest, Bob, that question is akin to people that don't get it asking why you keep boas. Nothing said in explanation will really make sense to the inquiring parties. At best, the answer is accepted at face value and the subject is dropped (how often does that happen?). More often, the questioning persists and the result is frustrating...and leads (to some degree) to a loss of respect on at least one side.

Not the type of response I thought I would read. I am looking for what one's motivation would be to keep a potentially lethal animal as part of your collection. Is it the cool factor? Is it the I simply love to look at them? It was not intended to start a debate. I have adequately explained my love for boa's countless times without anyone walking away rolling there eyes.

Griz

I do not think I would ever keep hot snakes.

I do plan to work with Gilas in the next several years. I am waiting until my children are out of the house though. It will probably be 18 - 20 years down the road. I have always been fascinated by them and drawn to them for some reason.

If I may be permitted to use a cliche Bob, if we have to explain it, you wouldn't understand.
Just as Harald said, if you cannot fathom why anyone would keep hots, then no explanation will be adequate.
For me, there is no cool factor, I don't broadcast the fact I keep hots. In fact, when a non herper asks if I keep anything venomous (usually the first or second question someone asks), I usually just lie and say no. It's none of their business, and I prefer people did not know I keep hots unless they share the interest.
People can and do hold the same level of love and fascination for hots that you hold for boas. If you can look at it from that perspective, then you might understand it, but I wouldn't count on it.

Do very many HOTS keepers milk their specimens for venom used for AV or for various venom studies? It would seem to be the most simple way to acquire this and negates the need for field collection. I too have a fascination with venomous species and have considered getting some proper training and upgrading to have a room fit for keeping them but have always stopped short. Total respect for those that keep them, safely, and no questions about what led to the decision from me. I only question when repeated envenomations happen. Like boids and colubrids, it's not a question of will you get bitten, but when and how often. Those people that keep them with out getting tagged, especially for years and years, are truly top-notch handlers in my book.

Originally Posted by Clay Davenport

If I may be permitted to use a cliche Bob, if we have to explain it, you wouldn't understand.

As much as I don't buy into that statement I reckon I will chalk this up to the brotherhood of venomous keepers. If asking a simple question like this is against the unwritten code then I apologize. I did not realize that venomous keepers did not have the ability/desire to put in writing their reasonings behind keeping them. A simple, "they have always fascinated me therefore I want to keep them" would have been sufficient and I would have understood. I have simply been real curious as to the benefits vs risk aspect of them and what makes the keepers tick when it comes to these animals.

I saw a Bushmaster at Tinley Park in 2005 and I have to admit, it was probably the most beautiful animal I have laid my eyes on. Would I ever keep one? Not in a million years but I will promise that any time I get the chance to look at one I will.

Griz

Originally Posted by Griz

A simple, "they have always fascinated me therefore I want to keep them" would have been sufficient and I would have understood.
Griz

No, you wouldn't have understood. You would have accepted the answer as being as good of one as you would likely recieve, but it would not have brought understanding as to why someone keeps a venomous snake.
The reason is it is an inadequate answer that doesn't actually explain anything.

Let me put this another way. I haven't the least amount of interest in keeping a mamba. I am a venomous keeper, and I still can find no reasonable justification for a private individual to keep something that dangerous. I have asked a mamba keeper, while viewing his specimen, why he wanted to keep one and he replied with basically the same answer. I couldn't see that as an adequate reason any more that a non-venomous keeper can see it as applied to hots as a whole.
That being said, I do not attempt to argue the point with someone who keeps mambas, I simply accept it as their choice to make, and that I will never understand it completely.

There is no secret code of the venomous brotherhood where this question is taboo, and I didn't mean to make you feel put off for asking. It's just that for someone who doesn't keep them, and has no desire to in the future, no reason is adequate for someone like me to keep something venomous. I don't milk them, I don't handle them. I just enjoy keeping them. Hearing the buzz when I walk into the room is fun too.

It's like me asking why anyone would want to keep an 20 foot retic. No reason they give justifies it to me, being a person with zero interest in keeping something that big. For that matter I can't understand why anyone would want a pet hamster. It's just a matter of personal preferance.

Originally Posted by Clay Davenport

No, you wouldn't have understood. You would have accepted the answer as being as good of one as you would likely recieve, but it would not have brought understanding as to why someone keeps a venomous snake.
The reason is it is an inadequate answer that doesn't actually explain anything.

Let me put this another way. I haven't the least amount of interest in keeping a mamba. I am a venomous keeper, and I still can find no reasonable justification for a private individual to keep something that dangerous. I have asked a mamba keeper, while viewing his specimen, why he wanted to keep one and he replied with basically the same answer. I couldn't see that as an adequate reason any more that a non-venomous keeper can see it as applied to hots as a whole.
That being said, I do not attempt to argue the point with someone who keeps mambas, I simply accept it as their choice to make, and that I will never understand it completely.

There is no secret code of the venomous brotherhood where this question is taboo, and I didn't mean to make you feel put off for asking. It's just that for someone who doesn't keep them, and has no desire to in the future, no reason is adequate for someone like me to keep something venomous. I don't milk them, I don't handle them. I just enjoy keeping them. Hearing the buzz when I walk into the room is fun too.

It's like me asking why anyone would want to keep an 20 foot retic. No reason they give justifies it to me, being a person with zero interest in keeping something that big. For that matter I can't understand why anyone would want a pet hamster. It's just a matter of personal preferance.

And Clay, that is certainly a better answer then what was originally received. There was not sinister plot here on my part. It is a natural fascination that I have as to what makes people take certain risks. Is the enjoyment they receive worth the risk and if so, why? I am truly fascinated by it.

I accept, wholeheartedly, that you and whomever else enjoy these animals. What I was puzzled about is how that enjoyment supercedes the risks involved. I think anyone would find that very fascinating to say the least.

They are beautiful animals and I would even put that Bushmaster ahead of any boa that I have seen. Is that worth the risk to me of owning one? Nope, but certainly if it is a logical reason for John Doe then that's fine by me and something in which I would have accepted. It's simply a product of an inquisitive mind that enjoys working through the rationale of other people's behaviors.

Griz

Originally Posted by Griz

It is a natural fascination that I have as to what makes people take certain risks. Is the enjoyment they receive worth the risk and if so, why? I am truly fascinated by it.

I accept, wholeheartedly, that you and whomever else enjoy these animals. What I was puzzled about is how that enjoyment supercedes the risks involved. I think anyone would find that very fascinating to say the least.

Griz

So do you quiz recreational skydivers as to why they choose jumping out of a perfectly good airplane as an enjoyable hobby?
I would assume the same curiosity would lead you to do so. The most common answer in that case is the thrill of the free fall. To a person who doesn't find that thrilling though, the answer does nothing to make them understand. It only causes them to be more baffled by the pursuit. Now it's not only why do you jump out of planes, but also why do you find hurtling toward the ground to be thrilling.

While I do not keep hots for the thrill, any reason given only leads to more questions. The reasons you gave may work to an extent to explain why one keeps reptiles, but they are inadequate when explaining why one keeps hots. Every reason you gave, if used in the context of keeping venomous is easily countered by saying, "but there are nonvenomous (i.e. harmless) snakes that fulfill that", and that is exactly what happens and what would most likely have happened in this thread.
To merely say you keep them because they're beautiful, or they're fascinating to watch may explain why you like snakes, but not why you choose to go to the next level and keep snakes that can kill you.
The long and short of it is there is no reason or justification at all that will cause someone who doesn't want to keep hots to understand why we do.

I don't care anything about educating people about hots, nor do I care about creating an interest in hots in other reptile keepers. In my opinion it's not an area of the hobby that should be pursued by the vast majority of keepers.
I do not encourage people to keep anything venomous and I do not offer advice on how to do it. I have however discouraged many against keeping venomous. That's just me and the choice I make. That choice however further causes me to not be inclined to explain myself, particularly with the realization that anything said will only serve to draw more questions while never satisfying any curiosity the asker might actually have.
The discussion is a bottomless pit from which there is no escape other than to go around it to begin with.

Ironically we've expended as much if not more energy explaining why we can't explain than we would have if we'd just embarked on the pointless attempt at trying in the first place.