One More Reason to Test for Adenovirus

Originally Posted by Saladragon

I think your post just sparked an idea. I do suppose I could make a page on our website for the progress of Itty Bitty and Teenie Tiny on our website, particularly in relation to the big girl. (In case anyone's wondering, we're waiting for my husband to come home to name the big girl.) I have fallen incredibly in love with these two little ones, and am so proud of them. They have fought so hard just to survive at all, and have done an amazing job at that! And for that...they at least deserve their own page!!

Yeah, I know...I'm a dork.

You're not a dork at all! Well, sometimes, but that has nothing to do with those little angels
I know what you mean about falling in love with the little ones.

Originally Posted by ladyknite

Topics of my post are not meant to be directed at anyone in particular, and definately not toward those trying to stop the advancement of this virus.

Honesty………seems to be a word that’s in high demand and short supply these days. We realize that rarely anyone in our reptile community trusts each other anymore, don’t we? Yet, it seems almost expected that the new comers and buyers of these dragons, should trust the breeders without hesitation. And in the meantime, we don’t even trust each other. Ironic.

I too feel that research and testing are extremely important. I can understand money, profit margin, unexpected costs and the need to pay bills. However, I also understand the impact this is having on new owners or those that do not frequent our forums, not to mention the unsuspecting breeders that have been profoundly effected. Their costs associated with buying their dragon, then the upward cost of vet care before they barely have the time to recover from relocation stress due to the panic, not knowing creates. I’m all for donations for research, but I’m not convinced that the cost of this will not be misconstrued by the greedy and the innocent taken advantage of. Again, we’re back at the trust and honesty issue. However, I will gladly donate a fee monthly toward the research for information, as long it is credible.

I wish for what we all wish for, health and good genetics. Who did what, where, when and why is important, yes, but not as important as controlling what has been unleashed in this community. The here and now………debating the options is wasting time, and costing lives.

What stands before us is an upset community that is afraid of those that have made their names in this circle. They seek the honesty and integrity of those they are supposed to respect. They expect to be supported in their efforts to raise and keep a healthy beautiful dragon from your stock. They’re met with excuses, accusations and assumptions based on the thought that “it can’t be the breeders fault”. In this….I somewhat agree. New keepers often make mistakes, have improper equipment, and the wrong information. However, the new owner expected to receive a perfectly healthy dragon on arrival, which, following relocation, should pick back up to normal. To my understanding, an adeno + dragon can’t withstand these imperfections to the same capability of a healthy dragon.

The guarantees that breeders offer are almost useless. So many things can be excused away. What if you can’t get them to contact you when you have a problem? After all, breeders have lives too. But that doesn’t help your time frame. It takes time to send samples for adeno testing, and that time frame usually isn’t in that guarantee.

I’ve seen many breeders argue the fact that the tests are costly. Their stock is massive and it is not a cost effective solution for them. There have been recommendations that the breeders add testing costs onto the sale of the dragon. Yet the community is losing faith and trust in them now. I believe you can refer to the BOI to clarify.

Only one breeder to my knowledge, and please correct me if I’m wrong, went back and purchased back the positive hatchlings that came from their clutches. I’m certain the cost far surpassed the profit made. And I must say, that is impressive to me. Honor, trust, and the genuine thought of the species is remarkable. This is what we trust. Why? Because the integrity to say “something went wrong” was there. It was researched and identified and dealt with to the best of their ability. It was brought to public attention to make others aware that this problem exists and to help them prepare for what was to come. This information provided so much to help others already. Those that have adeno+ dragons are searching for ways to promote their health and extend their lives without the thought of breeding to contaminate another generation. Thank You for that.

I don't think anyone has the knowledge to say this is over rated or over exaggerated. We simply don't have that information. But whether it is or isn't is NOT the point. The point is........preservation of a healthy species.

The buyers want answers, ones they can understand. How many of you will reimburse that adeno positive baby, the shipping, the testing costs, the vet bills to that new owner, regardless of your own testing beliefs or opinions? At that time, will you test the adults that produced the clutch and post their results?

Simple questions. Who can give simple answers?

Wow, what a post. I'm not sure anyone has simple answers, but I'll do my best to give you mine.
I made the decision to test. All the dragons in my home now have tested negative for this virus. That said, I don't think that anyone can say with any certainty that I can guarantee to be 100% Adeno free, even with the testing.
Would I buy a baby back that had tested positive for Adeno? absolutely, as long as that dragon had not been in contact with others.
Until more is known, I'm not sure that anyone can say that they know absolutely that they are 100% virus free. I can't, I wish I could. Hopefully, with continued testing, we'll get more information.
For me, this is what I can say today. My breeders have all tested negative, and I will continue testing them to insure they stay that way. The truth for me is that I spend way more yearly on feeding than I have on testing, and the testing, for me, is just as important to having a healthy, thriving colony as feeding appropriately.
I actually believe that most of the breeders participating in this thread are being honest, both about what they know and understand and about their plans on how they are going to move forward. It just seems that we have differing opinions on how seriously we're taking this and how big a threat we see this virus as.

Denise
Thank you so much for answering my questions to the best of your ability. You are very right, there are no simple answers, but yet you supplied answers well enough to satisfy many. I'm sure there will be questionable issues arise for which the breeder has no part in, but I also believe that will prove it's self in testing. Hopefully more will have the courage to answer those same questions.

All they want are the answers to the questions just as you gave. Without the worry of the run around.

I too believe most to want to provide honest information, yet they fear the public mindset. For that I am sorry, but deciet and dishonesty started this.

It takes leaders in every aspect to pave the road for others to follow. Those of you that provide answers and work toward solutions lead the way.

Originally Posted by Denisebme

You're not a dork at all! Well, sometimes, but that has nothing to do with those little angels
I know what you mean about falling in love with the little ones.

That's okay...because my friend, Denise, is a dork, too!

Originally Posted by ladyknite

Denise
Thank you so much for answering my questions to the best of your ability. You are very right, there are no simple answers, but yet you supplied answers well enough to satisfy many. I'm sure there will be questionable issues arise for which the breeder has no part in, but I also believe that will prove it's self in testing. Hopefully more will have the courage to answer those same questions.

All they want are the answers to the questions just as you gave. Without the worry of the run around.

I too believe most to want to provide honest information, yet they fear the public mindset. For that I am sorry, but deciet and dishonesty started this.

It takes leaders in every aspect to pave the road for others to follow. Those of you that provide answers and work toward solutions lead the way.

You're quite welcome Gina.
When I first read about this virus, I'll admit, my first reaction was feeling a bit dumbstruck by the whole thing. I was upset, and all the conflicting information was confusing, all the finger pointing distracting. I decided pretty quick that the only way I could know for sure what to do was not take any of the information on faith, but to dig up answers myself. I'm lucky, I had a great partner in my friend Tere. 2 heads are always better than one.
I agree that there is some fear out there, and that's a shame. I feel like I have a responsibility to do whatever I can to reduce the risk to people thinking about buying from me, and that is my motivation. I don't want to be responsible for infecting someone's colony, I don't want to be responsible for someone elses heartache.
There are good people in the Beardie world. In finding our own answers, we'll find those people.

[quote=ladyknite]Denise
Thank you so much for answering my questions to the best of your ability. You are very right, there are no simple answers, but yet you supplied answers well enough to satisfy many. I'm sure there will be questionable issues arise for which the breeder has no part in, but I also believe that will prove it's self in testing. Hopefully more will have the courage to answer those same questions.

All they want are the answers to the questions just as you gave. Without the worry of the run around.

I too believe most to want to provide honest information, yet they fear the public mindset. For that I am sorry, but deciet and dishonesty started this.

It takes leaders in every aspect to pave the road for others to follow. Those of you that provide answers and work toward solutions lead the way.[/QUOTE


Thank You Ladyknite also for the thoughtful and thought out post...

I think that Wendy is a leader in this fight... She broke the news -She has tried to help inform the community and the public on her website.

She does not do the run around you speak of

She has a Andeovirus link that has been posted since she found out with all the information she knows on the testing.

Her story- her love and life as she had to live her days of he**

The Andeovirus Link is also dedicated to Clyde her dragon that tested positive for Adeno.

She deserves more than people to try and say it was her husbandtry

It was not that ... anyone with common sense knows that by her standards.

So anyone that would or needs information! She has had it on her website for a long time already

check it out it read what she has to say

informative and educational

knowledge is what we are seeking and experience read hers also

[quote=walker75]

Originally Posted by ladyknite

Denise
Thank you so much for answering my questions to the best of your ability. You are very right, there are no simple answers, but yet you supplied answers well enough to satisfy many. I'm sure there will be questionable issues arise for which the breeder has no part in, but I also believe that will prove it's self in testing. Hopefully more will have the courage to answer those same questions.

All they want are the answers to the questions just as you gave. Without the worry of the run around.

I too believe most to want to provide honest information, yet they fear the public mindset. For that I am sorry, but deciet and dishonesty started this.

It takes leaders in every aspect to pave the road for others to follow. Those of you that provide answers and work toward solutions lead the way.[/QUOTE


Thank You Ladyknite also for the thoughtful and thought out post...

I think that Wendy is a leader in this fight... She broke the news -She has tried to help inform the community and the public on her website.

She does not do the run around you speak of

She has a Andeovirus link that has been posted since she found out with all the information she knows on the testing.

Her story- her love and life as she had to live her days of he**

The Andeovirus Link is also dedicated to Clyde her dragon that tested positive for Adeno.

She deserves more than people to try and say it was her husbandtry

It was not that ... anyone with common sense knows that by her standards.

So anyone that would or needs information! She has had it on her website for a long time already

check it out it read what she has to say

informative and educational

knowledge is what we are seeking and experience read hers also

I agree with you completely. Wendy has shown incredible class and integrity through this whole mess. The first 2 dragons of my own that I tested were Kahli and Tinkerbelle, which both came from Wendy at Neverland, and not only are they testing negative for Adenovirus, but they are 2 of the prettiest, most amazing girls on the planet (Tinkerbelle is the dragon on my avatar). I would never hesitate to do business with Wendy. She's honest, and I can tell you from buying her dragons that they are beautifully healthy. She is a credit to this forum and to this community, and I hope she realizes just how deeply some of us respect her.

I want to point out that Reptile Rooms has had information on adenovirus for years. I feel like there are some people who are trying to discredit Cheri Smith and discount what she is saying as a "witch hunt." There is more than one reason why Cheri is so knowledgeable on this virus. I wanted to post part of what it says on www.herpvetconnection.com, right on the front page it states:

Attn: Vets & Owners - if you have information (pathology reports, cases, etc) re: adenovirus in herps (esp. bearded dragons), please supply the information to Reptile Rooms, as they are dedicating their efforts to understanding this disease!

So, there are people that report information regarding adenovirus in their colonies or purchased dragons to Reptile Rooms and Cheri keeps track of it. She is in possession of some very helpful information and is also basing her views of this virus on that. She has always been very professional in our conversations and has never disclosed a breeder's name or that they might be dealing with this virus. That is key in tracking cases and gathering information. People need to feel confident that if they choose to keep their situation private that will be the case.

I have no doubt that Reptile Rooms tracking this virus is a huge asset for the bearded dragon community. I also feel that Cheri is in a position to help people better understand this virus. The only thing she is guilty of is to be passionate about the species we love and dedicating her efforts to preserving the U.S. dragon population.

I guess I am sharing all of this because I think the first place for someone to get information regarding adenovirus is Reptile Rooms. Denise had some great suggestions as far as researching and asking questions. It became apparent to me that the further I searched, that people would refer back to Dr. Jacobson as a source for info. I also believe in what Dr. Wentz is doing. No, it is not totally scientific, but I still think it offers valuable information about this virus. We have to start somewhere. Hopefully we will move forward from this point and eventually have the answers that we are all searching for.

thank you for the informative post wendy, it clarifies things a bit... always wondered why cheri had so much info lol.. but never doubted her, her care sheets and other advice has always been solid so why treat this any different?

Walker, I agree with you totally. I believe that Wendy's announcement was intended to inform the community, provide information, and to aid in the prevention of this virus. Her actions have been quite commendable and MANY people have stated this. Her integrity in this situation lays the foundation for what is to come.

Wendy, I agree that Cheri Smith is an extremely valuable asset in this fight for the species and prevention of this virus. Her information is invaluable to the community. Sometimes, when you're on the outside looking in, it's very hard to see that, and I believe that is where the majority of the community stands at this moment..........looking in. However, the are looking towards the breeders to guide them. My hope is that they seek the advice of those that search for a solution.

Denise, two heads are much better than one. I advise people to take no one persons advice, but to seek the answers of many and form their own conclusion. There is a standard norm for most things that do apply, however, to each his own. With more than one mind, we stand a better chance of achieving more information, obtaining different aspects of care, and strengthening the blood line that remains untainted.