Witblits dragons - true patternless beardies

Originally Posted by dragonluver83

You say animals that were inbred are small and weak, what about leucistic? there a recessive trait, and there length was 26 - 27 plus inches and 500-600 plus gram animals.




Why does a genetic mutation have to be inbred? there are genetic mutations with people. are you saying those people are inbred??? Genetic mutations happens some of the time with everything that lives and thrives. So why when its happening here with dragons there considered obvious inbreds?
You want inbreds. go to the people who breed there snakes back to there parents. Talk to them about inbreeding.

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I dont think that he means all genetic mutations are inbred. I think the part in question is how that mutation is reproduced and kept around....
You take a certain trait and keep breeding it to like traits over and over to get a superior example of the mutation. We are definitely inbreeding to keep some of these genetics going and we try and fix flaws along the way but its proven hard in some morphs. I know I dont keep a boat load of normal dragons to see if by chance a trans or hypo pops out by mistake to breed to another accidental trans or hypo.
I hope I am making sense.
Their are genetic mutations that do make it in the wild but it is rare and their is a reason for that.
If a hypo dragon appeared in the wild and I am sure one has then its bred to normal dragons naturally in the wild and has a large gene pool to choose from because they do not care if their offspring are clear nailed.
A hypo in the wild does not only mate with other hypos or het hypos. That is the difference. If a wild hypo only bred to other wild hypos then it would eventually inbreed quite a bit and weaken its offspring.

As far as leucistics go are we talking about marketed leucistics because if you have a true lucy dragon with large stature then please post pictures. I have yet to see a true lucy that is not a hypo or snow. JMO
All of my hypos seem to grow faster then hets or non hypos.

I just want to make clear these are my views and I am in no way siding with anyone or trying to fight with anyone. Just enjoying the discussion.

Originally Posted by dragonluver83

Chris i have alot of respect for you and no way picking a fight/arguement, but your killing me. The translucent gene is still one of the hardest genes to work with, and your breeding and then selling them.. Can you say your translucent hatchlings do as well as your normals or other morph hatchlings? So why would you be so hard on beardeds thriving, and still breeding that gene?

I'm not saying they shouldn't be bred. I'm not saying that translucents, hypos, leathers or whatever else aren't interesting or cool to look at. I'm saying that there is a good way of going about it and there's not a whole lot of info on the witblits here, and the point of all this is to learn. They have to be inbred to reproduce them....I never said they had to be inbred in order for them to pop up, although you can't say thats not a possibility of why they did pop up.

I again can agree with several of these opinions. I think what's quite clear is the dragons health relies in the hands of the owner. I thoroughly believe this morph will thrive just as the others have. With smart decisions and proper husbandry they should do well. As I said before, many of my dragons are "higher-end" and they THRIVE. In fact a female translucent purchased from Bloodbank sometime ago has proven to be extremely fertile. I chose to out-cross her to a local breeder's line hypo-pastel to produce genetically strong double hets. From one opportunity for copulation she clutched 6 times. The fertility and hatch rate were nearly flawless as well. Again, I think with a little patience all of these genetic surprises will be just fine. I highly doubt Witblits will be the last new morph.

Originally Posted by chris allen

So if I understand correctly then, these offspring we are seeing are from the very first parents that produced the first witblits? Is this the only pair of animals that has produced witblits? If that is the case, nobody knows what will come from breeding them, and they will have to be inbred in order to reproduce without your original pair.

Originally Posted by chris allen

That is where the weakness will come from, if there is any. Could be bad, could be fine, only time will tell. If you are saying you have an already limited gene pool there, that could be why this popped up, and already be inbred. Why does everyone think all these odd dragons are popping up? Just coincedence that all these oddities are popping up one after another? Doubt it. Take that into consideration with the increase in abnormalities, decrease in size/hardiness, and the potential dollar value with producing the newest morph. And not that it has to be a bad thing, but again, the race will start, and probably already has.

Originally Posted by chris allen

I'm not talking about a simple hypo, but yet like what was said earlier....there were problems with hypos too at one time(some serious issues I saw for my own eyes and was kept under wraps by some of the biggest). People see little hints of whats being produced. Patches of odd skin, missing spikes, odd looking toes, the list goes on and on....

It seems like in certain places shortcuts are being taken and the dragons suffer. Just my opinion.

Originally Posted by chris allen

Please, do not take this as being directed towards you, but I would like to see beardeds thrive, and I would love to see this morph go in a positive direction. The topic is interesting, and I love hearing other people's opinions on it.

IMO, it just seems like your calling it a weak gene and trying to bash the new morph, than in the same breath hoping all is well.
i just dont know where your coming from. I cant even tell if your for or against the new morph. Its like your for it, but only bad things are going to happen because other breeders are going to mess it up.
Everyone is going to try and cross those lines just like any other morph but thats what separates the hobbyist and the breeders.

Come on Tom, how would I even be calling it a weak gene if I know nothing about it??

Would like to clarify something real quick, the Author of that book wasnt Paul lynch. It was Fredrick L. Frye. sorry

Originally Posted by nick_c

I again can agree with several of these opinions. I think what's quite clear is the dragons health relies in the hands of the owner. I thoroughly believe this morph will thrive just as the others have. With smart decisions and proper husbandry they should do well. As I said before, many of my dragons are "higher-end" and they THRIVE. In fact a female translucent purchased from Bloodbank sometime ago has proven to be extremely fertile. I chose to out-cross her to a local breeder's line hypo-pastel to produce genetically strong double hets. From one opportunity for copulation she clutched 6 times. The fertility and hatch rate were nearly flawless as well. Again, I think with a little patience all of these genetic surprises will be just fine. I highly doubt Witblits will be the last new morph.

Nick you have said twice that you see good opinions from both sides? But i dont think some opinions are a "sound opinion"
It was stated the "genetically inferior animals are small and weak". But like i said look at the leucistic bearded dragon that animal speaks for itself.

It was stated that genetically inferior animals cant make it in the wild, nature would kill them off. But there is a book on genetically inferior animals surviving to adult hood.
It was stated that these genetically inferior were inbred. Where the op has stated that there hasnt been any inbreeding to produce these animals..

But i Will STRONGLY agree with Chris. The OP cant give you solid information on the dragon and its genetic traits. And there for this animal should not even be on the Market until more is known about it. The fact is your marketing a product that you yourself know much about. And you should work with your dragon more so when the time to sell it has arrived you can promptly answer any question that has been asked. So IMO the seller may be seeing some dollar signs... Does Chevy sell a new truck without a test run brake check etc. no that truck is thoroughly inspected. An if the potential buyer had a question, the dealer had a answer! and that is the way it should be here. and it is NOT!

Originally Posted by chris allen

Come on Tom, how would I even be calling it a weak gene if I know nothing about it??

Well thats what i am saying, you know nothing about it, and there has been alot of negative from you about the animal. Thats why i put your negative comments in bold. 4 post just seemed negative.
And like any other morph, hypos, trans, etc... it needs time and work. and your right like anything else there is gonna be people that try to produce it and market it as fast as possible. but do you think the people that do a close inbreeding are gonna produce healthy normal dragons? Nope something will be wrong whether it was a visible problem or a problem with the way the dragon acts and responds in its habitat.

I'm not sure you really understand where I'm coming from, or where I was trying to go with this. I'm not negative about the animal at all...... and I'll leave it at that.

Tom, now I know just the topics to bring up to ruffle your feathers a bit, lol. One day I'll have to tell you how I really feel about things LOL.

Originally Posted by chris allen

Tom, now I know just the topics to bring up to ruffle your feathers a bit, lol. One day I'll have to tell you how I really feel about things LOL.

Lol, well its just, dont shoot something down cause its new. dont insult someone cause of there new morph when you dont know nothing about it.
An when your talking about "Genetically inferior morphs" " high end dragons" what ever you want to call them, If you want to have a credible opinion should you have some kind of hands on experience. Not talk down on them when your standing on the outside of the loop.
What i said isnt directed at you, Chris or you Brian. But.. lol. yea i get worked up when people talk trash about "genetically inferior" dragons. These are animals i have been working with for the last two years now. High end dragons is my work, its what i spend most of my time working with. And i have much much more to learn about these animals but i do have a good bit of knowledge on them.
"High end dragons" the "genetically inferior" gene. The "weak and small unhealthy dragons". .. I Love everyone of these beautiful animals i work with, And Not one of my "Geneically inferior" dragons are any unhealthier than any of my normal sandfires bearded dragons... There just different!
Chris let me know i would drive to Jersey to find out. Well that and catch a charter boat trip at night. Love the Jersey shore!!!