Fighting dogs

I have recently had opportunity to investigate dog fighting as part of a paper I am writing comparing the effectiveness of breed specific legislation vs private tort action and other remedies for injuries caused by domestic animals.

Unlike snakebite injury which is a strict liability most of the time because snakes are not considered domestic, injuries by dogs, cats and etc. are often more complicated and dependent on the presenting fact pattern.

Intentionally fighting dogs is a felony but nonetheless there is a lot of it going on and it is a significant source of gambling in some places. So far, the guys I've managed to talk to who are part of this world are just plain evil and looking to argue and be nasty whenever possible.

I personally do not like or approve of animal fights done for entertainment and gambling because of the resultant death and injury to the critters involved.

What do y'all think?

Originally Posted by lucille

What do y'all think?

It can safely be assumed that the answer to that question is a foregone conclusion. Unless of course you actually think someone might come to a public forum on a site populated by animal lovers and take up the opposing side of this debate.

Because you are not doing research with an unbiased approach of course you are going to run into problems. I have met dog fighters and many many regular dog show people and the ones I have met aren't evil, looking to argue, and be nasty. They are actually extremely passionate about their dogs and their breed. Perhaps it was your approach. I look at people for who they are individually and don't group together like breed specific legislation=bad. Did you know before dog fighting became illegal matches were posted in Police Gazette? Yes, it was accepted in 1900 but only a small core of fanciers new or cared about it. Do your research and you should find that because of technology today fighting dogs have gotten into the wrong hands which as I am sure you agree is bad for everyone. I love dogs. I love Pit Bulls. I have never fought my dog. I spent $4,500 on vet bills starting on Christmas Day 8:00pm to help my pit bull. He died of Cancer 4 months later. So, yes, I might be a little bent if someone thought I might be a little passionate about my dog choice. Breed Specific Legislation= Pit Bulls=not for most people they couldn't handle the correct responsibility and understanding. Let me re-read...maybe I was evil, arguing, or nasty hmmm I argued in defense so yes I am guilty. Good luck with your paper.

Originally Posted by Charlie Smith

Because you are not doing research with an unbiased approach of course you are going to run into problems. I have met dog fighters and many many regular dog show people and the ones I have met aren't evil, looking to argue, and be nasty. They are actually extremely passionate about their dogs and their breed. Perhaps it was your approach. I look at people for who they are individually and don't group together like breed specific legislation=bad. Did you know before dog fighting became illegal matches were posted in Police Gazette? Yes, it was accepted in 1900 but only a small core of fanciers new or cared about it. Do your research and you should find that because of technology today fighting dogs have gotten into the wrong hands which as I am sure you agree is bad for everyone. I love dogs. I love Pit Bulls. I have never fought my dog. I spent $4,500 on vet bills starting on Christmas Day 8:00pm to help my pit bull. He died of Cancer 4 months later. So, yes, I might be a little bent if someone thought I might be a little passionate about my dog choice. Breed Specific Legislation= Pit Bulls=not for most people they couldn't handle the correct responsibility and understanding. Let me re-read...maybe I was evil, arguing, or nasty hmmm I argued in defense so yes I am guilty. Good luck with your paper.

If my not wanting dogs to be injured or killed in a fight is a bias I guess you are right, I am biased that way, I do not like to see dogs intentionally hurt.

Originally Posted by Charlie Smith

maybe I was evil, arguing, or nasty

Charlie, my approach was civil and done with the goal of asking questions and gathering facts; perhaps I was talking to the wrong crowd. You seem to be very civil, (I admire the way you stood by your dog and helped him in his illness, and I am sorry he died, Charlie) are you admitting to be 'part of the dog fight world?'
If you know people who would be willing to talk to me, please by all means invite them to email me as I would be more than happy to see a different style of interaction.

You are sayings pits are not for most people. Does that mean you believe they are in fact different somehow? I am not dissing anyone's choice, I am doing research on how to respond to injuries done by domestic animals.

If not BSL, how would you propose to keep dogs out of the 'wrong hands'? Which hands are wrong? Since fighting is a flourishing business, existing statutes do not seem to be working well; yet there are families who own various kinds of dogs with never an incident.

Please note that I am not taking a stand on which method: BSL, private tort, etc. may be most effective as I am still researching and reading.
In fact, I am hoping that my paper will be less like a news article that necessarily holds a point of view, and more like a photograph that will show what I have seen and allow others to draw their own conclusions.

I'm going to try not going to get into the whole emotional aspect here.....because I happen to believe anyone that thinks watching or participating in something that requires animals to suffer and die should suffer the same painful, horrible fate as these animals they claim to love.

However, I believe it has been proven time and time again that BSL is NOT effective in solving ANYTHING. Besides the fact that there is absolutley NO 100% accurate way of determining what a "Pit Bull" is..(literally thousands of dogs that "look" like Pit Bulls have been euthanized for being guilty of nothing but resembling something that the ignorant are scared of), if states, counties, and cities would choose to enforce simple "non-breed specific" dangerous dog laws, and actually follow through with punishment of the owners of such dogs, it would make a very big difference. Instead, law enforcement seems to wait until something hapens, confiscates and kills the dogs, and tells the owners to not do it again. If they ARE effective in enforcing BSL, the people who really want to fight the dogs simply move on to a new breed. A few years ago, you never heard of the Cane Corso, or Boerboel in this country. With increasing breed bans of Pit Bulls, they are just moving on to ohter breeds, which may very well be much more dangerous than the breeds already banned. Where do we go from there? Just keep adding more breeds? Ban dogs altogether? Keep pulling the innocent pets away from their families and killing them until they are wiped out? Repeatedly, dogs involved in attacks are labeled as "Pit Bulls" just because it makes for better headlines....when obviously they are not.

If you are interested, I can hook you up with some very knowledgeable folks who have been fighting BSL for years, and are much better at giving you the statistical and factual information without getting "emotional" over it than I am.

Here's another good thought.....most of the people that they have deciding which dogs are euthanized are not even close to qualified to be able to determine what a Pit Bull "looks" like, yet anything that fits their general description can and is killed. Like I said, it's impossible to visually (or genetically, for that matter) tell what is a Pit Bull and what isn't. Take a look at this site and see if YOU can decide which of these dogs are Pit Bulls, and if you'd feel comfortable killing the dogs you chose, on sight ID alone.

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

In defence of Pit Bulls I would say no they are not for everyone just like Chihuahua's are not for everyone. Pit Bull actually is not a breed of dog in it self the term pit bull is a generic term that can describe 3-4 different breeds of dogs. I personally have an American Staffordshire Terrier, he is the sweetest and most loyal dog I have ever owned, however he is also very hyper, head strong and chews everything. So no he is not a dog I would recommend for everyone, he needs someone who has the patience to teach him the way he should behave. I do not support dog fighting I believe it is a cruel way to treat an animal you should love. That said I have no problem with training an animal to protect you or your livestock or homestead. Any Dog left on a chain in the far corner of a yard has a great chance of becoming aggressive. Dogs are pack animals and should be allowed access to the members of his "pack" human or otherwise. I do believe that breed specific legislation is wrong and unfair to the many friendly loyal compainions that have homes with people who care for them. I don't know the answers in how to stop dog fighting, but I do know that it is not the Dogs fault and the breeds in question should not be punished as a whole.
Thats how I feel about it.
Kelly

Originally Posted by Cat_72

If you are interested, I can hook you up with some very knowledgeable folks who have been fighting BSL for years, and are much better at giving you the statistical and factual information without getting "emotional" over it than I am.

Cathy, I already had your linked site bookmarked for my paper, lol.
I am not necessarily a proponent of BSL since I own a GSD which is generally on many lists of BSL breeds. But I am definitely on the side of protecting innocent people including children from getting injured by dog bites and I am not sure that existing statutes are addressing the problem very well. I am also against dog fighting for the reason that these dogs get injured and killed in these fights and I do not see that as a responsible way to treat man's best friend.
I am heading out to the law library to do more research on this today, but I would very much welcome hearing from some of those people, thank you Cathy. Please ask them to email me: I am interested in not only their take on BSL, but since it is not working in many jurisdictions, what they would propose to solve the problem of dog bite injuries.

Originally Posted by Lucille

But I am definitely on the side of protecting innocent people including children from getting injured by dog bite and I am not sure that existing statutes are addressing the problem very well.

I think the MAIN problem with "existing statutes" is that they are poorly enforced, if at all, until something happens. Then they go to extremes to appear as if they are "protecting the community", when in all reality, if they would have been doing there job in the first place, many of these unfortunate incidents would never have happened. Many places (Miami/Dade being a prime example, I believe) that have enacted BSL have had an INCREASE in the number of dog bites......how is that effective?

PM me your email address Lucille, and I will contact a couple of folks from the group and see if they can help you out.

Thanks everyone for not getting too emotional in regarding to pit bulls and their backgrounds of fighting. You should all be happy to know that it is an extremely low number of dogs that actually do fight (I know, even 1 is too many but I can't deny it happens).

Lucille, what questions have you asked? A list? Why would someone be so evil, looking to argue, and be nasty IF you were civil and just trying to gather facts? The fact that you don’t like dog fighting is coming out continuously and hindering people from answering your questions of BSL or private tort action. To have an argument there needs to be at least 2 people.

“I personally do not like or approve of animal fights done for entertainment and gambling because of the resultant death and injury to the critters involved.” How can someone respond to you if you say something like that? Your personal opinion is well your personal opinion but how does that help with your initial fact gathering for “comparing the effectiveness of breed specific legislation vs. private tort action and other remedies for injuries caused by domestic animals”. Suggestion put your personal feelings aside and be neutral with your fact gathering.

Perhaps your post could have read, instead of title: Dog Fighting could have been Breed Specific Legislation vs. Private Tort Action
I have started a paper on comparing the effectiveness of breed specific legislation vs. private tort action and other remedies for injuries caused by domestic animals. Unlike snakebite injury which is a strict liability most of the time because snakes are not considered domestic, injuries by dogs, cats and etc. are often more complicated and dependent on the presenting fact pattern. One of my directions has lead me to dog fighting and the people who fight them. I am willing to listen and learn from more people that have this kind of information.

What does everyone think about this topic?


My pooch, yes I used to call him a pooch and everyone that knew "how" he was would laugh at that. He loved to be on my lap and close to me and to anyone he just loved to play. I would even bring him down to the elementary school and let the kids pet him with the teacher’s full cooperation. The teacher knew he was a Pit Bull even though he looked like a Rottie by his markings and size and I was surprised. I expected a defensive posture after I explained he was a Pit Bull but that route obviously didn't happen. She knew that she would be ok and the kids too. Gosh, I guess the news media hasn't brainwashed everyone about the Pit Bull.

My pooch was from some of the best fighting lines in this country. I do not fight dogs but I understand what it took to breed him. I spent years researching Pit Bulls reading books, attending local dog shows, and meeting people before I had a great opportunity to buy a pup from whom I thought was the best breeder. I never intended to fight him as most don’t, even though they were bred as fighting dogs. As a guy I guess it’s nice knowing that my dog might be able to handle his own when I go camping or hiking. It’s just a little cramped with him at the bottom of my sleeping bag, LOL.

Behavioral stability was one of the traits passed along while breeding because a lot was on line for the dog as well as the handler. That is why I posted that information regards how great my pooch was around myself, strangers, children or whoever. I could go on an on about how great they are in my opinion but unknowingly to the dogs they can get themselves into trouble. But the bottom line is and always will be the responsibility of the owner. It would be the same with guns, cars, planes and anything else that any irresponsible person would have the opportunity to do damage with. It’s the responsibility of the person. People use guns to kill use cares to kill and even some people even crash planes in order to kill. I have heard that guns have saved peoples lives. I have heard that cars/ambulances have taken expecting women to the hospital to have their babies. And planes well I wouldn't have been able to see my grandmother before she died of cancer if it wasn't for a plane. Each one of those examples has obvious pluses and minuses with laws to control them. Each one is a privilege that can be taken away but it is allowed first. Let's allow people to have their pooches and keep BSL from happening. It's not the answer. Enforce the existing laws.

“yet there are families who own various kinds of dogs with never an incident.”

Various kinds of dogs with never an incident—what research have you been doing that you can say “Never” an incident from other breeds. Come on!

You keep implementing dog fighting in your fact finding. I have been on yards of dogs that were mostly on chains and some in kennels. Some were fighting dogs and some were not. On my own I was able to easily walk up to every one of them without any such alarming gesture except Breezy who wouldn't’t let me go with that bear huge she put on my leg. She managed to get more attention from me than the rest . What a sweetie. She was a dog who was fought before the breeder that I visited obtained her. So this would leave me to believe that at least they would be fine around people. Wouldn't’t that be concluded?

This isn't about dog fighting like the title suggests but rather about preventing bad things from happening to people and property due to uncontrolled animals.


try http://www.endangeredbreedsassociation.org/index.html

A.D.B.A.
P.O. BOX 1771,
Salt Lake City, UT 84110
801-936-7513


Tethering a dog does not make him mean, aggressive, or otherwise bad. Please do some homework.

Behavioral stability was one of the traits passed along while breeding because a lot was on line for the dog as well as the handler.

That is an excellent point that most people don't realize, or care to. Especially dogs used for fighting cannot be allowed to be "human aggressive", as the handler needs to be able to enter the ring and do what they need to do for the dog. A human aggressive fighter is a liability. It is the people that train them to be aggressive toward humans and the people who breed them regardless of suitable temperament (or even breed FOR unstable temperament), as well as just plain irresponsible owners that need to be blamed. Not the dogs.

That said...I do not think that I could put all of my personal feelings aside when dealing with people that are fighting these wonderful animals either. I don't understand what kind of person could stand aside and watch an animal they claim to care for be put through that kind of torture and pain.

I had 2 Pit Bulls at one time, and they were incredible animals. I no longer own them, out of fear for THEIR safety, not anyone else's.