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Old 07-07-2011, 02:35 AM   #11
the gecko geek
This is the part that gets me. What if a snake out in the wild got to eat once a week, based on where it chooses to live? A perfect food supply that it was able to gorge itself on.

Just because they dont get to eat that often in the wild, doesn't necessarily mean that they cant handle that feeding regimen. Maybe its not that they are being power fed, but are being fed optimally?
I'm just throwing my thoughts around here. Not saying that i know everything, but just getting gears turning..
 
Old 07-07-2011, 02:36 AM   #12
Metachrosis
Sitting in a micro environment,using zero energy,burning zero calories
The obvious effects on power fed captive reptiles is there!
Even the alleged experts show their worth in snake terms,unexplained premature death
with in the first 4-6 yrs.Hmmm why is that? Oh its explainable alright,just not on public forums.

Its all about "snake sense" and how much smarter you really are compaired
to what your working with.
 
Old 07-07-2011, 02:48 AM   #13
Metachrosis
Post number 5 nails the issue to the floor,that right there is snake sense!
 
Old 07-07-2011, 03:24 AM   #14
the gecko geek
If snakes are kept in rack systems where they have no option but to not exercise, that is certainly true. They will just keep gaining weight and essentially do what a good majority of Americans will do with McDonald's food.

But if the snake is given the ability to do what it is supposed to do in the wild,
climb trees, move about, stretch itself around, then what is the problem with feeding it once a week or every two weeks?

My first pet boa, born in 2009 was given to me in July of 2010. It was just under 3 feet long, and was being fed 2 mice weekly. Before the mice it was on 2 hoppers weekly, and so on...
Was that growth rate too fast for the snake? It grew about a foot or so in a year being fed once a week.
Is that really too much growth for a boa??
 
Old 07-07-2011, 06:05 AM   #15
hhmoore
There are a lot of variables, and meal size is one of them.
Some people feed (standard) BCI babies pinky mice, which seems silly to me. Others start them on (smallish) adult mice. Personally, I usually start on rat pinks or hopper mice.

Some people will increase the number of prey items, rather than increase the size. I tend to stick with one prey item per meal. Sometimes that meal may be bigger or smaller, depending on what I have in the freezer. By the same token, my feeding schedule doesn't totally adhere to the calendar.


The reality is that snakes have evolved to endure intervals without food. While it can be argued that 15-18 meals per year might not be optimal for a young boa, I don't think it should be as easy as a declaration that 52 meals is. So far, what we HAVE learned is that frequent meals in order to promote rapid growth is counterproductive in terms of longevity. There is a lot of experimentation with regards to feeding schedules, but it is largely anecdotal. Is feeding smaller than "normal" prey, at more frequent intervals better for the snake than feeding "normal" less often? I don't claim to know...nor do I expect to know for certain in my time. It would take organized efforts over the course of 20-30 yrs to get the data; and I suspect it would still be inconclusive about what is "best".

I can see it now, if I live to be 80, seeing some article about the proper feeding of boa constrictors....and chuckling that people are still going on about that.
 
Old 07-07-2011, 08:28 PM   #16
Snakesitter
Great thread!

I keep Brazilian Rainbows rather than larger boas. They generally top out at medium rats, which only make a minor lump in adults. The species is also known for a tendency to obesity in captivity.

The “recommended” ranges -- which I compiled across numerous care sheets and breeder conversations -- are as follows:
--Babies: 04-07 days (one as high as “1-2 times per week,” and one or two as low as 10)
--Adults: 07-14 days

I took the conservative end for both, and my current feeding schedule is as follows:
--00-18M/24F months: every 7 days
--18M/24F+ months: every 14 days
I also tend to round down on food size, and skip meals every now and then.

Based on more and more comments about overfeeding, I've considered moving to a slightly less frequent schedule of:
--00-18 months (babies/fast growth phase): every 7 days
--18-30 months (juveniles/growth slowing): every 14 days
--30+ months (adults): every 21 days
As was noted above, I’d probably make feeding exceptions for breeding females just before and after that period.

Again, great topic.
 
Old 07-07-2011, 09:34 PM   #17
crotalusadamanteus
I can see it too Harald. HA HA

My first Boa was a Suri imported by Lloyd Lemke in 1975. She was estimated at 2-3 yrs old, and was about the size of my 3 yr old Boas now, roughly 4 ft+ I fed her every 10-14 days (basically as soon as she defecated) and usually a couple items, for her entire life. Which wasn't all that long. My mom always told me I was going to kill her feeding her that much, but you how us teens know more then anyone else does. So I kept on feeding her, she kept on growing, etc.

By 11th grade in HS, she was an easy 9 ft 35 lb animal, when she sadly passed away. A mere 7 yrs in my care. We opened her up in biology class, just because it was a good and different learning lesson, and her entire dermis was undercoated with a layer of fat, Her musculature was marbled with fat. Her organs, all of them, were marbled with fat. Problem is, I didn't learn anything from it as far as feeding goes, until many yrs later, when a friend shared some pictures of his Boa that died and was opened by a vet, who stated emphatically it was from over feeding. These pictures mirrored what I saw in biology class.

For a guy who loved his animals and thought he was doing the best for them, it was a wake up call for me. I haven't fed like that since, and never will. I can see the results in my animals, and I like what I see. Even if that means I gotta wait longer for litters.

I think where we go wrong is, we think like a human, on human terms, instead of like Toms says, thinking like a snake. Boas in the wild don't really actively hunt like many other species. They're an ambush predator, and might lay in wait for a week or more before it moves on because nothing came along for it to feed on, then wait somewhere else for a week or more, etc etc. They might get lucky and have 3 meals in a week come by, which they will gladly consume because they are also opportunistic hunters. After all, they may go the next 6 months with no meal at all. And that is what they are designed to do.

We put them in a cage, and everything changes. They aren't free to roam the same way they would in the wild. They are limited by the size of the cage, and often settle down after just a couple laps. So they do a sight more laying around in a cage then what they are designed for. We control their environment and often times they don't even get a proper temp fluctuation. Then we feed them more then they are designed to eat, and usually one type of item, rats. This alone is also working against them because they aren't getting the same variety of nutrients they would be from the various food items in their natural environment. This may cause deficiencies for all we know, and cause their system to not process this extra fat. Who knows. What we do know is that fat kills.

How about a medical/biological stand point not concerning fat. Some of you may recall yrs back a study done with Burmese python. During this study they found many things transpire during a feed response. For one, their heart rate speeds up, which in turn raises blood pressure. Likely an attempt to oxygenate the musculature for striking and constricting. Constricting further raised the blood pressure. When blood was drawn before and after, it was found that there were chemicals/hormones released into the system during the feed. These levels didn't drop for many hours after the feed. It's suspected that this flood of naturally occurring chemicals may have an adverse long term effect. Meaning if it occurs too often, it may harm the animal in the long run, much like too much testosterone in men causes baldness, and other physical ailments.

Even after all that is said, what really is a proper schedule for feeding a Boa? I know a guy who only feeds his Boas 4 times a yrs, and I never seen a picture of them where they looked malnourished. I'll wager his will out live mine too, because I just don't at this time, wish to try that extreme end of this ever lasting debate.

I have had good results so far feeding every 3 weeks, with the occasional extra week or two thrown in for good measure. I start this regimen their first yr. at about 6 months old give or take. I rarely have refusals, but if I do, they wait till the next go around.

I also take into consideration each animal as an individual. I had a female Hog Island Boa that was getting visually FAT off 1 large rat every 3 weeks. For her I had to adjust things. 2 feedings at regular intervals of young rabbit, then a lg rat the next time. Which actually seemed to work for her too.

But I also say if you're happy with your animal living maybe a dozen yrs, when the longevity should be closer to 30, then go right ahead and feed them all you want. If I've been convinced of anything since I got my first Boa so long ago, it's that we as humans tend to over feed, (our dogs, our cats, our children etc) and are causing the early death of our Boas.


That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
 
Old 07-07-2011, 10:15 PM   #18
hhmoore
I posted a link to a similar article years ago...sadly, the link no longer works; and I've been unable to locate that article again.
 
Old 07-08-2011, 07:55 AM   #19
crotalusadamanteus
The one I'm referring to I actually had in PDF once upon a time. But I think that it got consumed when my HDD went belly up a few yrs back. I couldn't retrieve any info at all, I lost all kinds of data on that one.

I haven't been able to locate the original source since then either. It was quite an interesting study though IMO.
 
Old 07-08-2011, 06:33 PM   #20
Metachrosis
By what has been presented it is very clear of ones "intent"
when it comes to feeding captive BCI species/ssp
Feeding every 7-10/7-14 days is willfully feeding an animal for "growth"

The entire issue is and or has been so carelessly handled to where its
virtually out of control.
The
 

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