Need Opinions, where responsibility of sell ends?

This is not a good guy/bad guy post, Rich has given permission to post this in the community interest.

Where do you think the responsibility of the seller ends after a sale if there is a potential problem the seller becomes aware of, after the sale and advises the buyer?

There is a reason for asking this and maybe this will better explain it.

I moderate on a medical forum, this has come up several times now. A few breeders have found out they have paramyxo in their snake colony and adenovirus in their bearded dragon colony. Each time they face the same dilemma.....

Ethically, they know they should contact all individuals that bought animals from them that COULD have been infected, to avoid past buyers having to go through what they are now ( dying clutches and losing their whole collection) and stop the spread of it if those animals do have it. They are in no position to reimburse the buyers for all the sales, and they certainly are not going to be reimbursed themselves for the animals they bought that infected theirs. (if it can be determined).

One breeder (bearded dragon/adenovirus) starting calling buyers telling them there MIGHT be a problem, the animals could be tested and avoid contact with others until they were. One response was the buyer(s) wanted to be reimbursed for the animals. Some had died months ago, many months after the sale. Some where not thriving, but no diagnoses of illness.

The breeder who sold the animals had no way of knowing there was a problem at the time of sale, adenovirus is hard to diagnose on a live animal and usually is only found after a necropsy. Many infected animals will seem fine and only when something taxes their system will the virus take hold.... in this case it was laying a few clutches and the hatchling showing classic signs and some dying that led the owner to discover he had this virus in his colony. Unsure when or where it entered.

The snake breeder was similar, the snake showing signs months after it was acquired, and many sales from the same housing area before it was diagnosed. It most likely came to him with the virus, but there is no way to know for sure or if it contacted it from another snake added recently that is not showing signs.

The best route for other animals is that all be informed, but sellers are hesitant to do that when it might be demanded they refund sales prices that were done months earlier or have their reputation ruined in this industry. There also is the possibility that animals sold may have had poor care that led to health problems/death, not related to the sellers recently found virus.

This can involve hundreds of sales in a short time

Where do you think the responsibility of the seller ends after a sale?

and I guess everything depends on your terms. In our policies, we only guarantee the outward appearance of the animal. We use reasonable approaches and we follow up after the animals in question have been received, beyond that we assume no further responsibility. That is not to say, that we would not help if a problem occurred, but we must revert to our policy for conducting business.

Several years ago we sold a beautiful female Nephrurus for $ 1,200. alot of money for a lady. 2 months later we received a fax from a vet indicating that an autopsy was preformed and the gecko (which died the day before) had an enlarged heart. As far as the vet was concerned it was a contributing factor in her death.For the buyer, she wanted her $ 1,200. back! Our policy was very clear, after receipt of the gecko, its hers ! We were not happy about the situation so we offered to give her back $ 600.
We were not obligated to. Our position was very simple. From all outward appearances the animal was healthy, eating and looked great. The fact that she dropped dead 60 days later, I am sorry, but its your problem, no longer ours. But we felt it was the right thing to do , we compromised, using some Solomons wisdom, and the customer was satisfied. These things happen, and from experience, I think they have to be addressed on a one to one basis. JERRY TRESSER

I agree with Jerry. If the seller sends out a healthy animal and honors the terms of whatever warranty was provided (live arrival, 10 days, 30 days, etc.) then the sellers responsibility has been met. It's unfortunate that these types of underlying problems are sometimes associated with the animals we love, but they are and it's the risk we all must accept. These aren't porcelain figurines, they're living creatures. Is it the sellers responsibility to call every past customer and warn them about a potential problem that they recently discovered? Tough call. I would say no, it's not necessarily a responsibility, but it would definitely be the morally correct thing to do. Again, tough call. It's a lose/lose situation no matter how you look at it.

Tom Burns
Upper End Exotics

I agree.
There is no way of knowing certain genetic problems, defects, or viruses if they are not apparent. I believe if the sale is done in good faith, then no money should be refunded. The terms of sale should be available too and covered--if you have a month guarantee and the problem arises during that time, then the refund is warranted. But months later, no.
"There is always a risk"--very true. Sellers are not clairvoyent.
Unfortunate things can happen.
Again, as long as the animal was sold in good faith--ie seller does not know that there is a problem.
It is certainly a touchy issue to go back and inform previous customers. Very tough. Proper quarantine procedures should limit the damage in most cases though. Another example for the need for strict quarantine--captive bred or WC.
Dana

I think the biggest factor is the breeder you're dealing with. In many cases the breeder is not going to step up to the plate and correct a situation even if they are in the wrong. In these situations it comes down to pressure from customers and the public to push them in the right direction.

Anybody on the BOI will jump on a small time breeders back and get them to do the right thing. However there has never been a situation on the BOI were a "big name" breeder has had to be held accountable for anything.

My only point is that terms have nothing to do with a deal, nothing at all! What does have something to do with a deal is the breeders greed, need for money, reputation and worry for a customers happiness.

I had a ball python die last year, if I'd bought that animal from a breeder motivated by how happy their customers are like Brian Sharp it would have been replaced in a flash! Brian is an outstanding breeder and will never have a post in the BOI because of his willingness to make things right.

I however didn't and it wasn't so I'm just out the money. What makes a breeder stand out is how they deal with tough situations!

PS No point to this post at all, just a chance for me to see myself type about something I now feel strongly about.

when you say "terms have nothing to do with the deal" I dont know what kind of a business you run, but in mine, our TERMS, are the foundation of our business. I dont think I have to point out the 100s of 1000s of dollars that are spent by firms to insure that their terms are spelled out very carefully on contracts .Look at car dealers, doctors, etc. they have terms, and if a problem occurs, that is where they will see what arrangements were made. No one is suggesting that you can not alter your terms to suit a particular situation, but any common sense business man is going to protect themselves.

Let me point something out to you as well as other readers of this post. If you are a corporation, your liability will be limited. I am referring to you personally. However if you act as an individual selling herps, the liability will be on your shoulders. Are you prepared to get sued, if someone comes back 2 months from now and claims that their animals (that they purchased from you) were diseased and spread to your own stock. !!!!!!!!!!!!!! They want their money back, they want vet bills, and they are taking you to court. I think you would have a real problem on your hands. Are you prepared for that "tough situation" I dont think so.

Even under the best of circumstances whether corp or not, you have to protect your own interests. The terms of your business is a wonderful asset. It provides you with a method of conducting business when you are selling, or accepting returns, or how the monies are to be paid.

I dont know if its just a lack of immaturity in running a business, or your taking a moral position, but I suggest that you reconsider your thoughts because your avenues could be financially fatal.
JERRY TRESSER

Adam is just angry because he started a BOI thread with no facts, with a changing story and with the intention of pressuring a big name, well known, quality breeder into violating their own terms of service in his favor because of his negative thread.

It backfired.

So he's bitter.

Still.

Fact of the matter is... Most big name breeders ARE big name breeders because of a long standing history of quality animals and quality service, it's understandable that there will be fewer threads surrounding them because they have worked hard to make sure there's never anything bad to say to begin with.

With regards to the original post and the original question... There are a few different kinds of responsibility... There's a legal responsibility and there's a moral responsibility... The first is pretty clear cut and will change depending on the terms agreed to at the time of sale. The second is an individual tendency based off the ethics of any given seller. Some will feel obligated to at least inform their customers of the potential of a problem, others will choose to hide the situation. I personally see one as being morally right and the other as morally wrong, but it's an individual choice. Continuing to knowingly sell animals which may have been exposed to something communicable and deadly is just criminal.

Probably the biggest fear (and rightly so) that any breeder will immediately get when they discover something like this is that it will spell the end of their business. So it will take one heck of a lot of guts to admit something like this and take whatever steps are necessary to rectify it.

One guy who did just this that comes to mind is Pete Kahl. He discovered some of his animals had IBD and just took the bull by the horns and made it right. I don't really know all of the details, but from what I understand he just told everyone what he knew, took a lot of expensive animals and had them tested (which had to be euthanized in the process), and basically did everything necessary to control a very bad situation. And his reputation, in my estimation, took a jump to an even higher plane because of what he did.

I have talked to a vet friend of mine (who would not mention any names) who said he personally visited some moderately big name breeders' collections and diagnosed them as being heavily infested with crypto. He then saw them later on at shows dumping those very same animals onto the public at large, but could not say a thing about it. But he did warn me to be leery of people dumping entire collections.

This kind of crap happens all of the time, unfortunately, which is exactly why my collection has been pretty much closed and isolated for years. I rarely buy animals from anyone any longer, and even then, those animals may be in quarantine for a solid year, or even more.

Sometimes you just have to take the tough choices to at least prove to yourself that you are worth the raw materials it takes to make up your body. Unfortunately, I believe few will do that, so it will continue to be a buyer beware sort of situation, at best.

As for the limits to liability, I tend to agree that once that stated warranty period has elapsed, that is the end of it. Anything else additional would be considered optional, ASSUMING the seller did not know, and could not have known, at the time of the sale that such a problem existed. However, if someone continued to sell probably infected animals knowingly, I can't think of any penalty that I would consider as being too harsh for them.

But he did warn me to be leery of people dumping entire collections.

This can't be said enough, and its not just small time breeders either, we've seen large well known and respected in the past breeders disposing of animals that most likely are infected. And like Rich's vet friend, we can not say anything but warn people of the above quote.

They elect not to warn others and try to salvage what they can for themselves dollar wise with no consideration for the buyer, the future infected offspring that spread the problem further or others they come into contact with... to me, that is the worst and most despicable actions a person can do. But as another poster said, people are afraid to stand up to a large breeder and they usually don't know they are not alone in having this problem, so they remain silent, and most people never know it is an ongoing problem.

What we are dealing with that started this thread are people that want to tell others, but can not bear the financial burden of reimbursement back for in some cases over a year, so what do they do? IMO, they are not financially responsible for that, but they are morally and ethically responsible to warm others that purchased from them. Had the seller to them done that, there would not be at minimum, 200 more animals out their potentially infected now.

Example, this is a true situation: "S" bought 2 animals from a popular breeder, both seem fine and she breeds them, she never has them in contact with other animals, several clutches later she sees problems in the clutches, has a necropsy done and finds out they have adenovirus. She then has prior hatchling checked and they are positive also, so the parents are checked and positive. She contacts all she has names of for the over 200 that have sold, but that is less than 100 people, since she sold them at shows. There are over 100 out there still infected and infecting others, including another breeder that bought one and has now lost over 100 hatchling also, plus several adults.

At the same time this is going on, another breeder attending the same show she was selling at returns home from the show and 10 days later he has animals that he took to the show sick and dying. Within a month he has lost or had put down 400 animals, his entire colony is wiped out!

And all because the original breeder tried to salvage his money and dump the animals that he was aware could have been infected. But she is afraid to say anything, she is not aware that there are 2 dozen others that bought at the same time and are dealing with the same problem from this breeder, they all are in the same situation as she and not aware of each other.

From this chain alone, over 800 animals are infected, five breeders effected and hundreds of individuals. Breeder that do disclose problems and try to warn others, should be commended and not held responsible for actions that were not in their control or knowledge. Its the only way to help control the cycle of infection. It does take a lot of guts, but it's the right thing to do and I would respect them more for it also.

Other breeders like Rich are smart, being cautious and securing their colony and taking the right steps when another is introduced. Not only at home, but also at shows. I have seen Rich's set up at shows, its pretty safe and secure, more breeders and vendors should take a lesson from it.

Sadly there are those that do not follow that, and that puts many at risk. I have not had to deal with anything like this personally, but I also realize how easy it could happen to anyone and if it does they need to know what their legal and moral obligations are and how others in the community feel.

They need to disclose it, contact all that bought from them, they are not responsible for repaying purchases and others to ask I do not think is reasonable. Be thankful you were warned and can take steps and not be in the same situation as the breeder because he was honest and upright.

Cheri brought up shows, and I think people need to rethink their policies in this environment. I see vendors let ANYONE handle their animals at the drop of a hat. Then when they are done, put it back in the container, usually with several others, and then do the same thing when another prospective customer asks to hold one.

Quite frankly, there is no way in hell I would buy an animal from that person. I do not want to buy anything that may have been handled by HUNDREDS of people at a show, and no telling how many other animals those people had handled before hand. If even ONE person handled ONE infected snake, everything touched afterwards could possibly be infected as well.

I DO NOT allow anyone to handle my animals. I will take them out and handle them for them, but DON'T TOUCH them until they are yours. I am polite, but firm, about this, and I explain why to everyone. Kids and lamebrains don't understand, but people with an ounce of sense do see the sense in this policy.

And don't fall into the false sense of security that the little bottle of hand disinfectant is going to preserve the safety of your animals. There are some pathogens that can happily live in pure concentrated bleach, so if that disinfectant you are using doesn't take your skin off down to the bone, it is not going to bother in the least some of the stuff you really would not want to expose to your animals.

And another thing, while I am on this rant. If you insist on carrying your animals around in a show, please, stay the hell away from my tables. I do NOT want you dropping mites on my tables nor do I want you touching anything at my tables at all. One hundred times over I would rather lose your business than to lose all of my animals because of your completely thoughtless and dangerous actions. Show promoters should have their people walking the aisles looking for this sort of practice and take steps to stop it. The last thing show promoters need to have on their conscience is to be a central rallying place for agressive pathogens to jump from one collection into many over a single weekend. I have heard several ex-vendors say they stopped attending shows just because this very real risk exists and it scares them to death.

EVERYONE needs to get smart about what they are doing and do it quickly.