Hunter Reptiles Sick Tort Update

This message is in a multi-part format to several people:

Jules,
I am not a tortoise person, and as such am unfamiliar with them. However, I would like to offer my condolences to you on your loss. It seems like reptiles in general are very fragile and succeptible to many ailments. Even when in the best of hands. And that fact seems to have been lost in the translation somewhere. I too have been through a similar experience. So my heart goes out to you. I wish you the best of luck in the future.

Jackie,
Calm down and count to 10. I myself sometimes talk back and forth to people inside different threads. I myself have pushed the envelope on several occasions. I even think sometimes too far. I even think some of my past posts have been deleted. Oh well. I broke the rules and Webslave tagged me for it. I won't gripe. As far as people like Neil and myself, you have to take us with a grain of salt. Look at this topic here. You have engaged in the back and forth style yourself. I don't know you and have no wish to berate you. In fact, I enjoy a good heated argument. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> *LOL* I'm just straying off topic in an attempt to push your buttons!!! &nbsp;<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'> &nbsp;In truth, I enjoy yours and Neils' little back and forth soap opera. *LOL* My point is this: Actually, I have no point. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

Chris Hunter,
I have to say that I admire the candor with which you conducted your first reply here. I was expecting a flame war. You have presented yourself very professionably.

In closing, I'd like to add that I am not taking sides. With every facet in life, there are two sides. Both have been adequately presented. I wish both parties the best of luck.

Shawn, Your posting does not leave a bad taste whatsoever. &nbsp;Everyone has a right to their opinion. &nbsp;I have been running my business with these terms for quite some time and have had no disagreement over my terms. &nbsp;If ever anyone has run into a problem, I address it as I did with her. &nbsp;Irregardless of the 3 hour time limit, no-one was still there to receive the tortoise. &nbsp;And you say a 24-hour time limit sounds more reasonable. &nbsp;Well, I gave her considerably more time than that. &nbsp;5 days was more than fair when I originally asked her to send it back. &nbsp;She didn't even mention anything was sick in her first e-mail to me 30 hours after delivery. &nbsp;I tried to address the situation as best as possible: &nbsp;send it back and I will credit you. &nbsp;She didn't want to do this. &nbsp;You have your feeling on this and I have mine. &nbsp;She stressed to me more than once that they were in a bind and needed the money back. &nbsp;I did what I thought was fair. &nbsp;I'm sorry if others disagree.

Chris Hunter

Chris....I gotta say, you handled yourself very well, so far....no flare-ups, no language problems, just the facts....the problem with websites is that every FIRST post is given the "respect" it is PERCEIVED to have?? In other words....if the author states his/her case in a no-nonsence, straight-forward manner...with all the facts (as they know it) in place...they are usually believed ...until the other party either enters the mayhem or doesn't...and it's the WAY the "defendant" enters that says A LOT about the outcome...
As far as this is concerned....even though I agree that the 3-hour thing is a little flaky....as long as it's maliable and able to "bend" from time to time, depending on the situation... and NOT written in stone...well, ok, you want it, you got it...
You seem to BOTH have your points, but...I guess the bottom line is that she didn't send it back for your refund??? Instead, she decided to keep it and try to get it better herself?? It's a noble gesture and a great benefit for the tortoise...but, that's the chance she took?? I really do feel sorry that it died, but I don't think you owe her a full refund, knowing the facts as they stand now....I would, however....think you should AT LEAST offer her another one at SHIPPING COST ONLY!! Yeah, you might lose a couple of bucks, but, this is a SPECIAL circumstance...this isn't an adult herper who knows what's going on...this is a kid (I sure hope I read that right?) who had to save her money for a while for this animal....if you DID do that....I can almost GUARANTEE YOU that she will remember you KINDLY for the rest of her life!! If you DON'T want to do that....well, I think you get my point....

Now Jackie (my dear).... Please try to keep in mind that this site brings together a "herp family"...as in ALL families...we talk amongst each other to better us ALL....every "HEAVY" thread NEEDS a little levity once in a while, so we go off on a tangent, but we eventually get back to the matter at hand?? It just helps break up the monotony....so, I guess I'm saying that some rules SHOULD be broken once in a while, for the right cause....but, when it comes to a simple thing like having the COURTESY to sign what you wrote, having the COURTESY to follow the rules (which means you have to have READ them first)....those are simple basic things that we ALL have agreed on....I'm just pointing them out to those who haven't posted here before....I think I've calmed down tremendously since the beginning??? Don't you???
OK Jackie....you've stayed up long enough listening to my stories...now go brush your teeth and go to bed, it's late....good night lil chillen...LOL ....Neil

In this case both seller an buyer agreed to certain terms and conditions. I have run in the past into two-page terms with which I disagreed and decided not to go through with the deal. That's my option as a buyer.

Now, as a seller I will have to agree with Shawn. Three hours seems just like a live arrival guarantee only. A reptile can arrive in good, regular or "barely made it alive" conditions. I believe the buyer needs at least 24 h to check if the animal has no external parasites, RI, etc.

Just my opinion,

Regards,

Hello again! spam_Chris, I see that you have your opinion and I have mine, and I can not say any more to you than I already have, like you said, you do not want to look at or answer my emails, and like I said in my post, this was one of my main problems with all of this, no, one cannot ignore a problem, it just will not go away...Limits or Terms or whatever, the tortoise has passed away, Hunter Reptiles Chris, at least say that you are sad about it or that you care even the littlest bit, I just cannot believe that you sold me the poor tortoise, yet you cared nothing for her at all, not even to feel sad that she is dead, even if you will admit no wrong...BUT there are some good people out there. spam_Some wonderful caring people that did not even know me, but yet, knew how I felt anyway. spam_Thanks so much, Mike Greathouse and Greg Riso. spam_Greg, I thank you so much for offering the shipping on my new little baby tortoise, but I will adopt him or her myself. spam_That was very thoughtful of you, and I will always appreciate it and tell others what you offered me. spam_ Mike, spam_I cannot thank you enough, after all that has happened today, this was a good surprise for me. spam_I appreciate everything, and you have made my day a much better one than from what it was this morning! spam_You owned me nothing, but yet, your heart knows I will love the little tortoise and would take wonderful care of it, and the redfoot will live on through this new little life, and you have gained a friend and a good customer, you will see I am a good customer when dealing with a good breeder like you, I am sorry you had to get caught up in all of this. spam_ spam_And, Chris, no I am not perfect, no one is, I cannot be one to judge if an animal is that sick in 3 hours time, but I do know that it should have not been sick to begin with. spam_And, no, I never said I was in a "bad bind" but I did say that we work hard for our money and do not make much as it is, and to be sent a sick animal that we paid 225 for is a lot for us to cope with. spam_But we are not the ones who had to really suffer and cope, the tortoise did, please feel some remorse for her, you said you refuse to refund, but remorse costs nothing, and why do you only reply to me on here, I have sent you so many emails, and no answer, no answer, I will not send any more. spam_Thank you Mike and Greg, you guys are the best, and examples of who should be adopting out these guys! spam_Mike, you will always have my business, and I will care for the tortoise like I care for all my animals, the best of care, with love. spam_Chris, I thought you would always have my business until this happened, I thought you would just do the right thing, but not even a word of remose...is it worth all of this, really? spam_ Is this what you think is fair? spam_ I think Mike and Greg were the ones who were really fair and just. spam_And Neil, the providing the BOX made me laugh, something else I really needed today! spam_ Thanks everyone for your opinions, thats what this board is here for, for the honest facts and opinions, I am so glad it is here, it helps resolve when there is no other way, which, in this case, there has not been. spam_This is the first, and hopefully the only time I have ever posted bad about here on anyone. spam_ And Shawn, I agree with you that Chris is the one that should make amends, but as everyone can see, it has been a hard deal without any bending, Chris, I ask you one more time to do the right thing that you feel, but if not, at least feel remorse for the lost redfoot....thats really what this is all about...

Jules...sorry about the "kid" crack...I now see where you said you were married....but...as much as you might not like it, and as much as WE might not agree with it....you DID see his terms, and you DID agree to them by purchasing his tortoise??? As much as it might have pained you...you SHOULD HAVE sent the Tortoise back to him THE NEXT DAY...this way...you would have been in the right, HANDS DOWN!! But now??? This one is REALLY up to Chris' moral fiber and his willingness to see a bad thing turned around....of course...yelling and screaming, and threatening will get you NOWHERE!! KEEP playing it cool and try not to lose your temper....you've got to realize that you basically had a "binding" legal agreement (with TERMS)....LEGALLY, I don't think you have a leg to stand on....but, morally??? THAT's a different story.....good luck, and Chris....just send her another one and raise your price on something else to make up for it....it's the right thing to do....Neil

I'm not really sure if I feel that Chris should feel morraly obligated to do anything more than he has already attempted to do. &nbsp;He gave her plenty of time to ship the animal back, she decided not to. &nbsp;Maybe the tort could have been saved if it was back in the hands of him and an experienced vet. &nbsp;He went well beyond his terms of service and gave her ample opportunity to ship the animal back while it was alive. &nbsp;Why wasn't it shipped back? &nbsp;As for the whole remorse deal, as Neal said, he was trying to stick to the facts. &nbsp;The purpose of the email was to explain his side of the story. &nbsp;He may feel horrible about it...i hope he does...he may not. &nbsp;BUT, that is irrelevent. &nbsp;If she took it to the vet and the vet said that it had some sort of terminal illness and that Hunter is at fault, then this is a different story, but there is no telling what killed the tort. or whether or not it could have been saved if it was sent back. &nbsp;
thanks for reading,
-Lucas Denning

Jules,

First of all I wish to thank you for your kind words. My personal feeling is that every deal between a seller and buyer is always unique simply because different mindsets, conditions, and expectations exist each time. When I sell an animal I don't specify ANY time period that my health guarantee expires. I believe that if an animal leaves my door in excellent health that it should remain in good health a full week or even weeks after the sale. For a seller to guarantee an animal for only three hours after arrival he/she must not have much faith in the health of his/her animals. Unless the husbandry skills of the buyer are virtually nonexistant there's little reason in my mind that a healthy animal should take a turn for the worst in so short a time frame. I've copied and pasted here one sentence which can be found in any one of my ads and I stand behind what I state. It is as follows:
"As always I guarantee live arrival of a healthy animal and your 100% satisfaction." You don't see any disclaimers or time frames here do you? If you're not satisfied for whatever reason I'll make sure you that you will be satisfied period, end of story. No fine print or disclaimers to be found anywhere. The day you see a negative post about me here will be a very sad day indeed. Jules, I've been in your position many times as a buyer and I know how frustrating and disconcerting it is to receive an unhealthy animal. All I can say to the questionable dealers out there is do onto others as you would have them do onto you. Not terribly original but you know I think it still applies after all these years. I believe "Eddie" said it.

Greg Riso <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

This is nuts!!! &nbsp;Jules was told to return the tortoise, PERIOD. &nbsp;You can't order stuff online, recieve at your house, decide you're not happy, refuse to return it, and then demand your money back or more stuff. &nbsp;Anthropomorphising aside, the tortoise was ordered and paid for with the terms in place. &nbsp;Jules paid for the tortoise and thereby accepted the terms. &nbsp;We can complain about the terms all we want, but we aren't part of this deal. &nbsp;If the terms are something Jules didn't like, then don't enter the deal.
I think most of you are just siding w/ Jules because of the sob story. &nbsp;Please remember Jules was given the option (over and above what was agreed to when the deal was inked) to return this tort. so that, it could be taken to the vet. &nbsp;Jules REFUSED! &nbsp;To bad, both for Jules and for the tortoise. &nbsp;IMO Hunter Reptiles did nothing wrong, in fact they went beyond their stated terms by EXTENDING their guarantee. &nbsp;For them to refund any money, would be crazy. &nbsp;Hunter was not given an opportunity to make the situation right, Jules robbed them of that by refusing to return the tortoise. &nbsp;And now half of you think Hunter is the bad guy. &nbsp;CRAZY!!!!!!

"Unless the husbandry skills of the buyer are virtually nonexistant" Greg far to often this is the case, I dont know how many animals you sell online or reptile shows etc you do, but i have been doing this for 15yrs and while there are many great people out there who educate themselves and prepare when looking for there next pet, there are far to many that do not prepare or educate themselves, on a regular basis I have people that I myself refuse to sell to simply because I get bad vibes about them, and you wouldnt believe how many people I have come across that act like they know what is up till they have the animal in hand then start drilling people for info because they got no clue what to do with this cute little thing, please dont think I am attacking what yuou have said and what I have said above I am not even applying to this topic just simply trying to show why people have TOS, I have set up reptile shows for ten years now, for many years I was setting up 3 or 4 weekand a month for 6 or 7 months out of the year, in doing that I have met some of the most wonderful people in this hobby and also some of the stupidist, crazy, absord people, just when I thought I had seen it all there was ALWAYS someone to come along and show me I had not, over the internet it is easier for some of these people who dont belong in this hobby to hide their lack of knowledge, planning and (insert snide comment here) ways, weve had people in shows who would want a cobra, that never had anything over a rosy boa before and would ask question like "will they tame down so I can handle it?" "is it safe to handle these with welding gloves" " what do they eat" well over the net its not as easy to pick out these nut jobs, and like you I think just about all of us started out with little or no TOS but after a while you get burned by the customers and you dont have much of a choice to protect yourself, in this buisness it hard being a seller, selling at shows is a breeze however over the net, to be honest with sometimes is not worth it, like I said this really has nothing to do with this thread, i dont know how long you have been selling over the net, so maybe you have experianced some of this maybe you havnt , just trying to show you a differant side of things so please dont take that the wrong way, sorry for my rant


now on to the topic at hand, I truely think bpc, and Lucas hit the nail on the head with this one, she had the chance to send it back even beyond the contract entered at purchase and didnt, not once but twice Chris was reliquished of all liablitly #1 under the TOS or contract she had entered when buying the animal, after that time fram (wether you think its fair or not is besides the point) he was no longer liable #2 he extened the guarentee and gave her a chance to get a replacment or refund by sending the animal back, she did not and for the second time the liabilty was lifted off Chris, this time NOT by his doing, but by her refusal to send the animal back

as far as the TOS for anyone reading this before you by an animal from someone you need to read threw that, if there is parts you dont like threw email, so you have a record ask it to be rewritten, the majority of the time I think most of us are willing to work with the customer, but if you think the TOS is unfair and buy under that contract and something happens, dont get upset about how unfair you think it is afterwords, do that prior to committing, and if the seller isnt willing to work with you on this TOS or parts you think are unfair, then find another seller

I am sorry for your loss and the tort but that is my opinion on it