Hunter Reptiles Sick Tort Update

I agree with Brian.  As tragic as it is with the loss of a wonderful Tortoise, it was Jules decision not to send the animal back to Chris when he told her to do so so he could recify the situation.  If I were in the same situation I would have done the same as Chris. If you feel the animal is sick, send it back to me (at my cost) and I will have it checked by my Vetrinarian and issue what ever refund,credit,or replacement might be due.  But under no circumstances would I just refund money when a person has decided to keep the animal and not send it back for proper care.  Most of you know there are many Vetrinarians out there that do not really have a clue about Herp Medicine but still continue to practice it.  I would never trust any vet with any of my animals wether they are my personal or animals I have for sale unless I know that vet personally.  she knew the Terms when the animal was purchased, Chris went beyond his own terms to try to ensure happy customer relations but she refused.  That lays responsibilty on her and not on Him nor his Business.  As far as My business I offer "Live Healthy arrival" I do not send animals out that are sick or ill and I doubt very seriously that Chris would have knowingly sent an animal out that was ill.  If the animal arrived alive and did not show signs within his agreed upon terms then he really did not have any more liability for the animal.  I know this sounds harsh but it is the truth. I believe Customer service is number 1 but I also firmly and strongly believe You can only do so much otherwise your business will not last long.

I looked at the Hunter Reptiles website today, the terms look very different than what they did before for sure! spam_Now, instead of the 3 hour time frame that you have for any guarantee, it is 24 hours to get ahold of him. spam_Now it says reptiles have to be shipped ASAP, and now it says you cannot take it to your own vet. spam_It did not say any of this before, but now it does. spam_How would I have known anything before, I did not!!!! spam_I felt I was at his mercy for anything at all, he even kept writing here that 3 hour time frame deal that I did not do it, it was used against me all of the time, and I had someone there to get the shipment, and had the proper enclosure as I have experience with many reptiles, and even have an outdoor pen. spam_It ALSO now says, you have to take pictures of DOA, this is another one here. spam_I told him in email that I would send pictures of the sick tortoise, he claims he never read them, he always read my emails, but chose nto to respond, and I do have pictures of the tortoise too anyway, but the tortoise was SOA (sick on arrival) not DOA, sick is not as easy to tell for sure.. spam_spam_It used to not say anything about vets, or shipped ASAP or any of that, it only said the 3 hour thing, it never said before I could not take it to my own vet, I guess he feels now he has to add all of that stuff, which is a good thing, because now people have a chance to see if their reptile is sick or not for sure, which I did not, when I got home from work that next day is when I emailed Chris, I could not any sooner than that, nor could I tell the day before if the tortoise was for sure sick or not, reptiles are hard to tell, but when they do not eat, whcih takes time to see, thats the first observation. spam_ There are other things that have been changed on the terms also, but i am not going to pick them all out. spam_I cannot believe it takes something like this to be more fair to the customers, Hunter Reptiles should also write that he will put everything in writing that he will take the tortoise back and give credit and all of that too, because who knows, when it gets to the place, the wrong person might be blamed, but at least the terms are good now but they WERE NOT BEFORE, and then no credit or anything. spam_At least he says now for sure in the terms that he will take it to the vet. spam_I never had these terms for me or anything, yes, if I would have known that in 24 hours I could contact him, I would have went home at lunch to see if the tortoise wwas OK and then emailed him, but I never had this chance, I was at Hunter Reptiles mercy for the 3 hour time limit, which was impossible and just not fair especially now that the terms have been changed, and now it shows those were not good terms at all. spam_I had no clue where I stood in anything, so I took the tortoise to my vet I did not want her to die, I kept hearing I had no rights because of those terms over and over, the 3 hour time limit, I had nothing in writing about any of my rights, and I did not think the tortoise would make it there alive by the time this was all settled, well, I wish I would have known these new terms then, I emailed and emailed for quite a while before a response on that weekend, and then I had to call to know what to do, and by that time, I had found the vet, and like I said, I didnt know where I stood, if I knew that on my own I could have sent the tortoise written in terms and everything, I could have then sent her back, but what can I do when I have nothing in writing, and the tortoise was in need of care fast by then and not being able to survive a shipping trip. spam_Chris writes that he did what he felt was fair, if he felt it to be so fair, then why did he change the terms, and I ask, fair to who, not to me, and without customers, no one would have a business, and if no one worked, you would not either, and PLUS, reptiles is not a BUSINESS, thats what I keep explaining too, its caring about reptiles and people, how can anyone just sell these guys to make a profit and not care, I do not know and never will, but then again, I spoil and love every animal I have and still love every one that I do not have!!LOL. spam_I understand everyones points too, about you do not know who is on the other end, but in some cases, you do have to trust customers in order to make any business last, because thats what every business is built on. spam_Every case is different, if one feels that another did go out of their way to take care of the animal, then they should know that person was taking the best care of the animal that they could. spam_ And, by the way, my vet has a website and is experienced in dealing with reptiles, he is not one that oly sees them sometimes, he was going to take extenive tests and Xrays, but unfortunately, its too late, but I will always know I did the best I could. spam_i am glad at least, though, that he changed his policies and terms, I never had the chance, but maybe some one else will now that is is in writing plain as day, at least Hunter Reptiles did that right. spam_There are two sides to every story, but those who only read the website now are thinking this is pretty fair, what does the 3 hour thing mean? spam_Well, it was an unfair rule that one poor tortoise helped to change, its unfortunate it had to happen that way, and that nothing was ever done to even try to work things out after she passed away, no email at least saying "I am sorry, heres at least eh vet bill money to cover your money, nothing..." spam_Thats the whole time, being ignored. spam_And I think many people would be upset if they called a reptile Co, and were told that they didnt care about anything but the business, and kept arguing. spam_We ahve both stated the points well, but I just wanted to add that about the terms. spam_I see after this, I was not a bad customer like he said, but the best ever, because I spoke for all who buy from him, and the terms are better, if I was bad, why would he have changed the rules for the better?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>? spam_ I thank you everyone for your opinions, whether you are for me or not, thats what this board is for, and it has helped a lot. spam_But, like I said, at least something was done, I am nto at a loss anyway, because I am gaining a new little friend...and that is the most special thing of all...there are some really nice people out there....I knew there was!!!!

From what I read in all these posts he extended his terms to try and resolve this scenario. He did not hold you to your 3 hour period. What proof does he have that someone was there to take care of the animal. There was no signature. This is the only safeguard that the business owner has that things will go correctly on the receiving end.

First you stated you could not locate a vet now you have one that is Dr Doolittle. &nbsp;He asked that you return the tortoise so he could have it checked out and see where the problem arose (i.e. sick before, because or after).

Fact: You do not change your terms of service because of a good experience with a client. You change them to protect you from situations like this.

It irks me that people believe good business practices and taking care of animals are mutally incompatible. Having a time frame for guarantees, requiring a signature at arrival, and requiring return of the animal or at least a digital photograph at the time of arrival or within guarantee time frame is only smart business. A business owner who provides live animals has many more overhead and transaction issues to deal with than a non-living product. They have to place safeguards (terms) in place or they will be ripped off at every corner and out of business rapidly. If they did not then you would be paying 4 times what you are paying now to cover the costs of replacing every animal that is shipped and not handled properly on the receiving end (not saying that is the case here, but we do not KNOW because the requested steps where not followed). This does not obsolve the business owner from satisfying the customer but rather lets the business owner know that things were handled properly on the receiving end and that they are the issue. Most business owners (even in this BUSINESS) that are in for the long haul know they cannot grow by upsetting customers and will seek a solution for a customer.

My $.02... ok maybe more like a nickel.

Dan...That was PERFECT!!
You hit the nail on the head, as far as business owners go! And ESPECIALLY when dealing with live animals to the "public"...
If not on "paper", every business owner HAS TO have some concept of what will happen if something goes wrong, and for what reason! Personally, I have NO FINE PRINT AT ALL in my ads...I take things on a case by case basis...I figure it this way...you've got to pick your fights carefully!
This is one senario where I happen to agree with Chris, and what he tried to do, and what Jules failed to do (for whatever reason)...the terms were violated, granted...they were LOUSY terms, but she agreed to them...the fact that he JUST changed them, shows me that he knows how to be maliable to an ever-changing public environment....you've GOT TO be able to do that to survive....
Jules...please don't get me wrong....I'm NOT slamming you in the least! I really respect the fact that you wanted to put the Tortoise's health, FIRST on your list, but, in this case, you should have just sent it back for a replacement or a refund....sorry....Neil

Right on Dan. I'm not a seller (yet) and I will only work with a few animals for the very reasons you stated. This is a fun hobby but there are too many potential problems that may arise from the transactions and shipping that have convinced me to not go overboard on buying and breeding.

Jules... Hate to beat a topic that's been covered but the first thing I do before I even e-mail a seller is read the t.o.s. I saw some snakes on the classifieds the other day that jumped out at me. They weren't on my wanted list but I decided to buy them. The seller was a person who I had on my list of potential people to do business with. I read his terms and without getting into it they were not 100% agreeable to me. Maybe they were reasonable and maybe they were not, it's a moot point. The fact is they were not reasonable to me so there was no contact made.

I will not try to get a seller to consider changing his terms. I'll just move on. Too many people to buy from to have to dicker over terms. It might be the manner of payment, the mode of shipping, arrival guarantee or how long the animal is guaranteed for. If I don't like even one of the terms I move on.

I wrote somewhere in a reply about desperation. Desperation opens you up to being scammed. It also leads people to do unwise things. Sometimes we want things so badly that we blind ourselves to pitfalls and potential problems. I'm not saying you were scammed, but I believe you wanted the animal badly enough that it might have clouded your judgement. It's much easier to sit on this side of the fence because you can see things without the emotion.

Neil, SHAME ON YOU. Maliable (sic) good word, spelling not so good. It's spelt :-) malleable. Check e-mail I sent you a little something although in all honesty I think Winston might enjoy it more. Off to work.

Steve Barry

Steve...you're right! If I'm going to USE the word...I guess I should know how to spell it!!, huh?? Am I able to SUE "Hooked on Phonics" for screwing me over??? Next time...maybe I should just use, "elastic"...hahahaha

BTW....GREAT e-mail!! I was mesmer... mezmeris... mesmerized ....I was in AWE!! lol

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

OPINION: &nbsp;Maybe your friend didn't want to sell them because they were sick? &nbsp; You said "If it was terminally ill before I sent it off to her, (that would truly make it fault on my part " &nbsp;DO you have a letter from your vet that said this tort was 100% healthy before you sent it?

Fact: I emailed hunter several times about coming down to his facility with MY VETERINARIAN to buy turtles and tortoise and he wanted no part of that! &nbsp;WHY?

Mike and "other Guy" sorry i forgot your name who paid shipping. &nbsp;You guys are the HEROS. &nbsp;Good JOB. &nbsp;HUNTER REPT, you need to practice better customer service skills. &nbsp;I do hold classes on this for around $800. &nbsp;I could come down and work with all your employees. &nbsp;You really need to start over and work something out with Jules. &nbsp;I waited after you posted to respond and I would have been easier on you if I hadn't. &nbsp;That is no way to represent yourself! &nbsp;(OPINION)Thousands of Herpers read your post and still probably sided with Jules. &nbsp;And we aren't saying she did everything right. &nbsp;You should have handled the situation better.
Thanks <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

Honestly, I don't even think there is any room to argue here. &nbsp;The terms were written in plain english on his site. &nbsp;If she didn't agree with them....then she shouldn't have finished the deal!! &nbsp;The standard reptile/amphibian garantee is only "live arrival," not 3 hr healthy arrival. &nbsp;So I don't think his terms were actually that horrible. &nbsp;You can't agree to a deal and then whine about them after the fact. &nbsp;That's ridiculous. &nbsp;If she didn't like them, she should have either talked to him and gotten them extended (through email so there was proof) or simply passed on the deal. &nbsp;Why is this so complicated? &nbsp;I have passed on some deals that were extremely good for the simple fact that it is better to pay a bit more for animals that have a garantee on them then to pay a bit less and have to accept the fact that a much higher % of them will not make it.
-Lucas
-Lucas

First of all, kudos to Mr. Hunter for elaborating on his policy.
spam_Secondly, Jules, have you ever purchased animals online before? spam_Or from retail shops? spam_When and if you did, how much time did you spend reading store policies? spam_I've found that for the most part, they're very similar. spam_Generally they extend a 24 hour guarantee. Mr. Hunter ended up giving you more than that, even though he was under no obligation to do so. spam_You say you felt "at his mercy", but he told you that you could send the animal back to him. spam_I've bought my share of reptiles through online sources, and I've also always taken the time to review the return and refund policies. spam_IMO its the consumer's responsibility to do so. spam_Did you read Mr. Hunter's policy BEFORE you bought the tortoise? spam_And if you found it so unpalatable, why did you buy the tortoise? spam_
spam_Purchasing animals without seeing in person is a risk. spam_That's a risk many of us take and if it goes wrong, we cannot immediately point the finger at the other party. spam_
spam_In reality, reptile ARE a business, one that many peole make their livelihoods from. spam_A year ago around Christmas time, I sold a gentleman a pair of neonate rosy boas, and an enclosure I set up myself. spam_He brought me the male from the pair about 4 weeks later, claiming they were sick. spam_So I asked if I could work with the snake. spam_ The snake went into quarantine and soon after died. spam_I happily replaced it with a sibling. spam_Not 3 weeks later, BOTH babies became sick. spam_No medication was helping either one. spam_They both died under my care. spam_Well, I had 7 from that particular litter, 2 of which i kept, and 2 I sold to private parties, and all 4 of those snakes were thriving. spam_The customer insisted I had sold him 3 sick snakes. spam_After some investigating, we found out his housekeeper was spraying the snakes with pesticides, because she was horrified of the critters. spam_Even after all this happened, I ended up selling him a yearling rosy at cost (after he fired the housekeeper, naturally). spam_I took a large personal loss from the whole event, as he paid for 2 snakes and I gave him 1 free and 1 for $30. As a business I took the loss. spam_But I digress. spam_
spam_Jules, IMO Mr. Hunter has done all that he could for you. spam_Both of you learned something from the experience. spam_So just walk away a little wiser and read up on animal policies before you decide to add to your collection.
Sue Henson

Gil O Bert, sounds to me like you're just a little upset Hunter wouldn't let you into the facility. &nbsp;I, like you, don't buy from places like that if I have another option, but I still believe Hunter did nothing wrong in this situation.