about siklback and their husbandry

Originally Posted by Otter_23

Maybe I missed it somewhere in this post but is this kind of the same as the derma ball (without scales)?

It's probably a similar mutation.
Here is a Link that gives a description of a wild caught, mostly scaleless snake. Pay close attention to how the skin is described.

From another researcher:
Soft epidermis of a scaleless snake lacks beta-keratin

M. Toni, L. Alibardi

Department of Biology, University of Bologna, Bologna, Italy

European Journal of Histochemist 2007; vol. 51 issue 2 (Apr-Jun):145-152

Beta-keratins are responsible for the mechanical resistance of scales in reptiles. In a scaleless crotalus snake (Crotalus atrox), large areas of the skin are completely devoid of scales, and the skin appears delicate and wrinkled. The epidermis of this snake has been assessed for the presence of beta-keratin by immunocytochemistry and immunoblotting using an antibody against chicken scale beta-keratin. This antibody recognizes beta-keratins in normal snake scales with molecular weights of 15-18 kDa and isoelectric points at 6.8, 7.5, 8.3 and 9.4. This indicates that beta-keratins of the stratum corneum are mainly basic proteins, so may interact with cytokeratins of the epidermis, most of which appear acidic (isoelectric points 4.5-5.5). A beta-layer and beta-keratin immunoreactivity are completely absent in moults of the scaleless mutant, and the corneous layer comprises a multi-layered alpha-layer covered by a flat oberhautchen. In conclusion, the present study shows that a lack of beta-keratins is correlated with the loss of scales and mechanical protection in the skin of this mutant snake.

Key words: snake; scaleless; beta-keratin; ultrastructure; immunocytochemistry, immunoblotting.

Correspondence: Lorenzo Alibardi,
Dipartimento di Biologia Evoluzionistica Sperimentale, University of Bologna, via Selmi, 3
40126, Bologna, Italy
Tel: +39.051.209.4257.
E-mail: alibardi@biblio.cib.unibo.it

Paper accepted on February 28, 2007

There is also nothing to indicate that they have the same quality of life.

Yes there is: the person that knows more about them than anyone else has said so. The only person to ever hatch one out has stated as much.

Originally Posted by Denisebme

From another researcher:
Soft epidermis of a scaleless snake lacks beta-keratin

M. Toni, L. Alibardi

Department of Biology, University of Bologna, Bologna, Italy

European Journal of Histochemist 2007; vol. 51 issue 2 (Apr-Jun):145-152

Beta-keratins are responsible for the mechanical resistance of scales in reptiles. In a scaleless crotalus snake (Crotalus atrox), large areas of the skin are completely devoid of scales, and the skin appears delicate and wrinkled. The epidermis of this snake has been assessed for the presence of beta-keratin by immunocytochemistry and immunoblotting using an antibody against chicken scale beta-keratin. This antibody recognizes beta-keratins in normal snake scales with molecular weights of 15-18 kDa and isoelectric points at 6.8, 7.5, 8.3 and 9.4. This indicates that beta-keratins of the stratum corneum are mainly basic proteins, so may interact with cytokeratins of the epidermis, most of which appear acidic (isoelectric points 4.5-5.5). A beta-layer and beta-keratin immunoreactivity are completely absent in moults of the scaleless mutant, and the corneous layer comprises a multi-layered alpha-layer covered by a flat oberhautchen. In conclusion, the present study shows that a lack of beta-keratins is correlated with the loss of scales and mechanical protection in the skin of this mutant snake.

Key words: snake; scaleless; beta-keratin; ultrastructure; immunocytochemistry, immunoblotting.

Correspondence: Lorenzo Alibardi,
Dipartimento di Biologia Evoluzionistica Sperimentale, University of Bologna, via Selmi, 3
40126, Bologna, Italy
Tel: +39.051.209.4257.
E-mail: alibardi@biblio.cib.unibo.it

Paper accepted on February 28, 2007

Sorry...just couldn't help myself.

Originally Posted by KelliH

Yes there is: the person that knows more about them than anyone else has said so. The only person to ever hatch one out has stated as much.

Yes, he stated as much according to what HIS husbandry standards are. There is quite a difference between what he does and what most of us do.

Originally Posted by KelliH

Yes there is: the person that knows more about them than anyone else has said so. The only person to ever hatch one out has stated as much.

Google is a great tool, and before I said anything on this issue I actually took the time to simply look up scaleless reptiles and found a lot of controversy on pretty much every mutant ever created.
In snakes, the chief complaint was the high husbandry standards required to care for an animal with such delicate skin. Those aren't my words, those belong to someone on an Australian forum that actually cared for one.
There is a big difference between a snake with no scales and a Bearded Dragon with no scales, Bearded Dragons bite and scratch when they breed.
It really shouldn't be a shock that there is controversy on US forums related to this mutant since the controversy can be found all over the place where this is discussed, with the same issues coming up and the same concerns being raised.

Yes, he stated as much according to what HIS husbandry standards are. There is quite a difference between what he does and what most of us do.

I'm not understanding your point and where you are going with that. The original breeder of these animals should know more than anyone else how they behave. I'm not quite understanding how his husbandry standards have anything to do with whether these animals have the same quality of life as a normal bearded dragon. If you could explain why it would help me to better understand the point you were trying to make.

Originally Posted by KelliH

I'm not understanding your point and where you are going with that. The original breeder of these animals should know more than anyone else how they behave. I'm not quite understanding how his husbandry standards have anything to do with whether these animals have the same quality of life as a normal bearded dragon. If you could explain why it would help me to better understand the point you were trying to make.

You'd really be able to understand the point I was trying to make if the point I was trying to make in any way related to what you stated. I'm sorry. I totally misread what you said, and didn't realize it until after I had replied.

Google a great tool, and before I said anything on this issue I actually took the time to simply look up scaleless reptiles and found a lot of controversy on pretty much every mutant ever created.

You are so right, Google is a fantastic tool. I did a simple Google search as well, and read some actual published scientific articles on scaleless reptiles, (not someones opinion posted on a message board).

Here is one on evaporative water loss in scaleless water snakes-
Scaleless Water Snakes Publication

The above referenced article states that cutaneous water loss is no greater in scaleless reptiles than in normal reptiles.

Here is another scientific article that was published in Copeia. The subject of this study was a scaleless Pituophis (Gopher Snake) and this particular study showed that there is no difference in water loss and heat transfer between scaleless and normally scaled reptiles. This article states that the snake in question behaved completely normally: it moved normally, fed normally and defecated normally. The article goes on to state that "The present study suggests that the commonly held views regarding the physiological
role of the scales of reptiles may be incorrect.".

While I was Googling looking for scientific data I came across this page:

http://www.herper.com/strange/scalelesspics.html

This page focuses on a scaleless Texas Rat Snake owned by Chad Arment and Greg Watkins-Colwell. They state that "scaleless snakes are no more difficult to keep than normal snakes, and shedding has never been a problem. Some lines may have inbreeding which can create their own set of problems, but I am not aware of any difficulties which can be traced directly to scalelessness.".

I have to get back to my gecko room now, and I couldn't find much else of value (ie. facts) to add to the discussion. However, my husband has an extensive herp library that includes books and also a whole bunch of scientific journals (and I mean a bunch, he has been collecting this stuff for 30 years!). He also has access to other information via the Zoological institution he is employed with. Anyway, I am going to do some research on this topic, it interests me a great deal. I am in no way saying that anyone is right or wrong, all I am doing is stating my opinions and trying to learn more about this via scientific studies and facts, rather than unsubstantiated opinions. None of this is personal at all, it's just an interesting debate.

Ok, gecko room, here I come.

You'd really be able to understand the point I was trying to make if the point I was trying to make in any way related to what you stated. I'm sorry. I totally misread what you said, and didn't realize it until after I had replied.

Ok, I just figured I had a brain fart or something. It happens with some frequency as I get older.