If anyone needs help with dog behavior...

Shannon, I don't know what else to suggest. I've had Cooper for ~4 months now and he's FINALLY getting to the point of holding it until he gets outside (he's 6 months old now). It took a lot of patience on my part, which I admit wore pretty thin at times, but I would imagine that a dog that is already 9 months old and has become set in his ways is going to require a ton of patience on your part. I know you said "recently" but how long have you had him?

Originally Posted by Bar None Reptiles

Oh and I forgot to address the praise issue. Yes, the few times he has gone outside I have given him stupid amounts of praise. I always felt that you may look stupid doing so, but it works better than anything, even treats. You get the most results that way. And when he has gone in the house, he was scolded, especially when caught in the act. But what gets me is when I do catch him in the act I first issue a verbal reprimand, this doesn't stop him. I have to physically stop him from going and interrupt the action to get him to stop. I've never had a dog keep on doing what they are doing when confronted aside from him. I just hope that his previous behaviors are not too far etched into his brain.

Here is what I would do:

Treat him like a puppy. Every waking moment he is either in the crate, outdoors, or leashed to you. You just put the leash through your jeans belt loop, and wherever you go in the house, he goes, so you can sort of see when he is getting ready to go. I really think that if you will do this for a couple weeks and be 100% consistent, you will get good results.
When he starts sniffing around and you think he needs to go, take him outside and reward him if he performs. I use little bits of sliced hot dog.
BTW I think you are great for giving the little guy a chance.

Originally Posted by coyote

Feed the shi tzu first, then decide which of the other two is going to be next in the hierarchy and feed him. Most subordinate dog eats last. Be consistent.

A dog should never be in the habit of bulling through a doorway or gate. You go first, then dog waits for permission to go after you.

We are going to work on obedience training and the sit stay during the summer. I agree with the doorway thing, it gets on my nerves when they are all trying to crowd through.

Since I got the 4th dog who is fed inside because of food aggression, the others are eating together outdoors again with no problem. I have read that they have to have a hierarchy and they have to work it out, and generally I think this is O.K The new dog who gets along fine except for the food aggression with the other dogs, until I do the sit stay I will just feed him separate.
He does nothing if I take up his food dish, every owner needs to be the alpha, there should never be a situation where the dog is alpha over the person.

Well, we had what I thought was great progress today. I kept him in his crate all night and first thing this morning within 10 minutes he had accomplished everything outside that needed to be done. I let him wander the house for a few minutes but I had to rush off to work so in his crate he went. After lunch he did what he was required again and was rewarded with time out of his crate for a while. He went a good 5 hours before urinating on the floor suddenly. Not bad. I was about to take him out, but he beat me to it. My fault, not his. He just seems so afraid of living in a house environment. We have a 52" Tv and he is afraid of the people on the Tv because they are almost life size. He spends alot of time hiding under things, he always seems to want something on top of him. I nicknamed him the Boogeyman since he likes to be under my bed so much. Yes, I got him very recently. I brought him home on a 'trial' basis on Saturday evening after we closed the shelter. Since he was not adopted that was the last day I was willing to give anyone else a chance to get this dog. He is absolutely gorgeous, just not trained. His final adoption was completed today. Not that I was honestly trying him out, there was pretty much no way I was going to return him. He'd have to be brawling non stop with my other 3 dogs for that to happen. And since I have been working with him for the last 4 months, I was certain that was not going to happen. I would leash him to me, but this is 44 lbs of hyper, no manners dog. Not something that would happen very easily. I just close all doors and keep him in sight. My biggest issue is that he just seemed afraid to relieve himself outside. When I think back about his time in the shelter I don't recall a single time that he has gone potty outisde of his kennel. No volunteers ever said he went on a walk, and they usually make it a point to tell me when dogs do. And during play he never left anything behind in the yard. I was curious if people thought 15 minutes was sufficient time for him to relieve himself or if I should walk him longer. I don't want him to get the impression that I have all day to wait for him to go and he take full advantage of it every time. I'll try and get some pitures of him later and we can play guess the breed. Maybe even come up with a better name than he has now, Boss Hogg. That was what he was named at the shelter. But anyway, good prgress and I really appreciate the help. I've just never had one take so long to fall into routine. I usually find a spot they prefer and they will go when they come to that spot, but his spot was in my house, and that wasn't working very well.

Shannon, that's good to hear. Any progress is still progress. I have to give you a lot of credit for being willing to take him in when no one else would, and for having the patience to work with a dog who has spent the last 8-9 months pretty much learning the "wrong" routine. Let us know when you have him "cleaning your house and doing tricks" like the others!

Originally Posted by Bar None Reptiles

Well, we had what I thought was great progress today. I kept him in his crate all night and first thing this morning within 10 minutes he had accomplished everything outside that needed to be done. I let him wander the house for a few minutes but I had to rush off to work so in his crate he went. After lunch he did what he was required again and was rewarded with time out of his crate for a while. He went a good 5 hours before urinating on the floor suddenly. Not bad.

I think sometimes that we need to look at things from the dog's point of view.
Crating and leashing for several weeks will help create an environment where the dog will realize he can't pee at all inside.
But if he can do so sometimes, I am not sure he will learn that lesson. Accidents need to be cleaned with one of those enzyme cleaners if on carpet as they will detect the scent left otherwise.
Good luck, I know you are working hard with him.

That is exactly why my entire house, with the exception of one room, which is always closed, is hardwood/linoleum type surfaces. That was the requirement to get me to agree to move here. I don't have time to clean carpets all day. Anyway, he is still making progress. When he does what he needs he gets to join us in the house. If he doesn't go, he is in his crate. I know he doesn't have to defecate everytime he goes outside so it has been a tough call as to when he has done enough to be out of his crate. He is going to get there eventually. We are both learning. I just figured he was smarter than this, but he is stuck in his ways. When I first started at the shelter, on day one I went to go feed him and he knocked the dish out of my hand spilling the food everywhere. Within 3 days he learned that to get his food he had to bow down and wait. So I figured that was great and he was extremely intelligent. he would see me coming and just assume position, but like I said, he would only listen to me and only do this when he saw me. I also remember the first time I put a leash on him, he went into a death roll! Well any animal that acts like a reptile and does death rolls must be cool! He walks very well on a leash now. I'll try to get Matt to put up some pics of him so you can see what I am working with. Thanks for all the help everyone, I was just so discouraged after the first few days and just needed to go back to the basics.

Hello Art...bet you don't remember me (us). We took our beagle, Louie Loo Eye (Louie) to you about 10 years ago when you were in Maumelle. You trained him in obedience for 3 weeks and then we brought him back every Saturday for about 6 months.

Just to let you know (if you even remember)...Louie is doing fine still...he is almost 11 years old and although we RARELY work with his obedience anymore, he remembers all his skills he learned 10 years ago...it still amazes me he remembers.

Anyway...though you might enjoy hearing about one of your old pupils.

Here he is from a year ago. http://wallyjarratt.com/website/gall...6_15_00_34.jpg

Wally and Lee Ann Jarratt
Louie Loo Eye (The Beagle)
Buster (The Beagle)