Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

There is way to uncertainty for underground to be basically thrown under the bus at this point. I know that it's been said that this thread was not made as a bad guy thread but this is exactly what it seems to have been created for. You did post it on the boi.
Why not get him tested then revisit this thread with some real solid information. Some diseases look extremely similar to others. I have seen baby ball pythons with identical looking blisters.
Now hopefully because of the big picture this is not SFD. And what if you are wrong and the condition was caused by your husbandry I hope you will oppologize to underground for all the lost business this thread has caused them. This thread reads "buy from underground and you will possibly have your whole collection wiped out"
My bottom line opinion is this thread is premature and there is nothing thus far to back up your claims except some educated guesses.

I just can't side with those who seem to actively want to see this as mainly a matter of potential dollars and cents. If the OP's fears end up being proven unfounded - as well as those of the others whose Underground purchases happen to be exhibiting the very same symptoms in a similar time frame - I haven't seen him post anything that would imply an unwillingness to admit to such. In which case, people won't even really need to go though whatever mental gymnastics they use to allow them to read the plethora of negative BOI threads and still support Underground through their purchases.

On the other hand, if SFD does end up being proven, OP has actively taken a part in protecting the community. Personally, when dealing with the potential for what may be a highly-communicable disease with a currently-unknown mode of transmission, I'd think that the greater good would best be served by knowing the potential as early as possible. I think some are going out of their way to see malicious intent where I can't really see any.

In a world where Underground's own past activities shouldn't play a significant part in determining the potential veracity of their alleged part in this; surely, the fact that others have chosen to present fake documentation shouldn't be used to cast veiled aspersions on the OP. At this point, the thread's here to say. With that in mind, there's not much point in continuing to complain about its existence; to continue pointing out the need for the further documentation that we've been given no reason to believe won't be forthcoming when it becomes available. Requests have been made and acknowledged; objections noted. How about letting it play out now?

I think it would be wise to remind those who are involved in this thread that there are those out there who would love to stop , find health issues to curtail or make it more difficult to have any herps . Not to mention the transportation across state lines. Especially when it comes to health issues. what better reason could there be if someone's fear moved into people getting affected.

I have seen it before prior to baby greens being prohibited from shipping for fear of children getting contaminated. So many turtles were destroyed, not to mention an industry that saw confiscation, destruction of private collections and countless of shipments, including our own by those who found an avenue to stop the trade and movement of herps with the introduction of a health related issue. That will do it.

I have nothing to do with underground, but i am concerned if this gets out of hand as it will surely lead to someone somewhere notifying authorities that we have a new health threat.

Until we know for sure what the problem is , and even if it turns out that the suspicions are correct about the snake being diseased. Do we kill all the livestock at Underground based on this, do we notify authorities that we may have a health problem being transported across state lines. Do we monitor shipments and set up guarantee stations for testing. Will it be only restricted to snakes, or do include everything .

There are a group of people who would love nothing better than to stop this industry from existing. That includes mammals, birds, and probably insects as well. We are fueling a discussion here that may have far reaching consequences. More than we asked for.

Originally Posted by Lucille

This is a strange progression of illness.

I agree, but how much info is in the public domain about how this disease affects a snake, especially at the early stages, and how it progresses over time? Most research focuses on identifying where it is occurring, how quickly it's spreading, and in what species. I haven't found much at all on its progression on a day-to-day or week-to-week basis. So I can see where both Joe and Logan would have initially thought it wasn't anything major, especially since with Joe's critters it cleared up when he changed their husbandry, and in Logan's the pustules developed just before the snake shed.

Also Joe did your vet have any ideas about what disease this could be other than SFD?

Originally Posted by snowgyre

Since this has come up several times here and on the Facebook page, let me clarify again. Myself and other the other actual experts working on SFD in wild snakes never said this was definitively SFD. We said the lesions are consistent with SFD and the snake needs to be tested for SFD. Even if this does not test positive for SFD, the fact remains that Underground Reptiles is still exporting wild-caught diseased snakes to unsuspecting (and sometimes expecting) buyers across state lines.

In my opinion, the OP did not approach this situation/thread with nearly as much tact as you are describing. What this BOI thread portrays is an epidemic of unlimited consequence to the point that people are alerting fish and wildlife and stating that underground shouldn't be shipping any animals at all.

Where is the basis for this? The fact that there exists a very rare, largely unstudied disease that shows similar symptoms? The fact that wild caught animals (which are known for carrying parasites and diseases and have a much shorter life expectancy than captive bred animals) became sick under one person's ownership (and improved when he improved his husbandry, I might add)? That is incredibly irresponsible and could end up having very drastic consequences as far as owning and shipping reptiles are concerned, as was mentioned by another member.

You're willing to risk the ability to buy and sell any animals across state lines, or own them at all for that matter, because there's a rare disease out there and you saw a couple snakes with blisters from bad husbandry? As intelligent as you generally come across, I must say that I'm absolutely in shock. This thread should never have existed until definitive proof was provided that showed there was something to worry about.

Granted, maybe the test results will come back and show that the snakes did have this disease. But not knowing, and still creating this thread and scaring people and creating a whole situation just blows my mind.

Wild caught animals get sick. If you aren't prepared for that then you shouldn't be buying WC animals.

Originally Posted by MCMB Reptiles

Wild caught animals get sick. If you aren't prepared for that then you shouldn't be buying WC animals.

According to Logan, his water snakes were advertised as CB not WC.

Joe stated in post 72 that his snakes were not WC. He did state that Underground Reptiles is known for taking in WC snakes and either flipping them quickly, or if they get a gravid female, to wait until she lays and then they incubate the eggs and sell the babies as "captive born".

We also don't know if these water snakes were from eggs incubated at Underground Reptiles, or if they were purchased from another supplier shortly after they pipped.

I thought most water snakes in US were live bearing?

Originally Posted by bcr229

According to Logan, his water snakes were advertised as CB not WC.

Joe stated in post 72 that his snakes were not WC. He did state that Underground Reptiles is known for taking in WC snakes and either flipping them quickly, or if they get a gravid female, to wait until she lays and then they incubate the eggs and sell the babies as "captive born".

We also don't know if these water snakes were from eggs incubated at Underground Reptiles, or if they were purchased from another supplier shortly after they pipped.

Nerodia, as with most water snakes in the U.S. are live bearers,

Lynn Peterson
Big Time Reptiles

Originally Posted by snakesareawesome

I thought most water snakes in US were live bearing?

If so that's my mistake based on info I read where a WC female rat snake with SFD laid eggs, and the babies contracted SFD days after pipping. My apologies for the assumption.

But we still don't know if the water snakes purchased by Joe and Logan are CB from a WC gravid female, or if they were born at Underground's facility or elsewhere.

I have no interest in protecting Underground but I do have issues with the way the OP has conducted their argument in this thread.

Here are the problematic claims

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

I bought new born water snakes from Underground Reptiles this summer. They have developed a disease that vets have speculated is Snake Fungal Disease (SFD).

Right from the beginning we have the presentation that the problem must have originated from the seller and in addition the OP specifically identified a significant fungal disease as the presumable cause implying that this is most probably the causative agent. Note that at this point he hasn't yet informed those reading the thread that he didn't take them to the vet until months after symptoms first appeared (post 19 date of purchase). This has to be factored into the credibility that they symptoms did indeed appear within the claimed period as there is no proof except that testing was delayed from the end of July to November.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

I have had others tell me they bought snakes from Underground Reptiles that died with symptoms similar to SFD. While my snake is being tested I would like to see if any of you have, or know of someone who has had snakes from Underground develop skin lesions, scabby, crusty bumps, swollen eyes, disfigured areas in the nose / lip area.

This is an ambiguous statement of "others' that purportedly have had the same issues but without listing names, time lines, diagnosis or even the number of people, and so forth to add weight to the claim that the disease must have originated with Underground.

from post #6

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

I spoke with a person who was at their facilities and told me she saw adult snakes in pretty bad shape. The babys she bought have shown signs of disease, SFD in my opinion. I'll see if she will contribute to this thread If a relatively big dealer is sending dangerously infected snakes all over the country its really a bigger deal than just good guy / bad guy. So I can see how some people may not want to get involved

Supposedly a employee confirmed his claims of diseases at Underground and that in his opinion it is SFD and no some other disease. This person has never been identified, the date the conversation happened or anything else that could in someway verify the conversation happened.

Note that the animals are now described as "dangerously infected", the hyperbole increases from here to paint a picture of significant threat.

from post #16

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

SFD has wiped out - 100% mortality - federally endangered massassauga populations in Illinois and has proven to be 40% fatal in small scale lab studies. It has no known cure.

Note the claim and usage of descriptive terms in the above quote, it again supports the significant threat picture however when the literature is checked, there were only a handful of massassauga deaths due to this disease in Illinoise and when asked about the origin of that claim no response was given except that the OP felt that it shouldn't be questioned in this thread. In the same post the OP acknowledges bringing the officials into the issue before he has a confirmation that the disease is what he claims ...

from post #23

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

For over a month the symptoms subsided. I thought I had it beat until this latest guy showed up pretty bad off.

Okay so for a month the symptoms had gone away and then reoccurred so now we have another variable in trying to connect the seller to the disease. Is this the same disease that presented earlier or is it a new one brought on by some husbandry issue of the OP. This is critical as there is at least one condition in snakes that presents the same and often clears up on its own but that condition has not even been considered as a possible cause of the original symptoms or the secondary appearance of the symptoms.

post #30

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

The snakes arrived with no sign of disease.

Okay so the snakes arrived with no sign of disease but it is still in the OP's opinion that the disease originated with the seller despite this acknowledgement.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

I don't know Ed, kinda seems like you've gone all pedantic on us here

Attempting to divert the requests for information to support some of the conflated comments.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

They were kept in quarantine and cleaned / sanitized with 20% bleach solution almost daily. They were kept bone dry. These are not hardly the conditions that "water blisters" develop, no?

Unless the water bowl is removed from the enclosure a claim for bone dry cannot be made for the animals as humidity is implicated in blisters on snakes (or soaking). I let this slide the first time through.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

Within a month of their arrival 6 of the 9 began showing symptoms of SFD - small white pustules on the dorsal surface. One was covered with them. I have photos of all 9 snakes taken August 20, 4 weeks after arrival.

Here we have the OP diagnosing the animals as having SFD as he is discounting the possibility of other potential causes.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

Research indicates that the fungal species thought to be the cause of SFD (Ophidiomyces ophiodiicola) is often isolated on snakes with water blisters, or hibernation blisters. No one knows why it sometimes results in a lethal impact.

Here he back tracks a little by admitting that it is often isolated but not always from animals with water blisters. This is after discounting immediately above it.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

However severe declines have been documented in some areas, such as a 50% decline in a popula on of mber ra lesnakes in New Hampshire in 2006, and 100% mortality in a popula on of massasauga ra lesnakes in Illinois in 2008

Repeats claim of lethality in massasauga to support his claims of SFD but again fails to show where he got the information.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

My only concern here is to stop the spread of what could a devastating disease. This has world wide implications as SFD has now been isolated in Europe and Australia as well as western US in captive herp populations.

Claim of good intent but note that the OP only targeted Underground as the bad guys and not all sellers of wild caught animals (but also note that he has still failed to connect the animals he claims were infected at Underground with Underground except through unverified/unverifiable claims combined with time line issues.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

Some of you may have noticed I didn't make any demands on Underground to refund money or pay vet bills? I don't expect them to and I didn't come here to demand they do. This seems like an incredibly difficult concept for some people to get their heads around!

So we now have claims that there could be no ulterior motives except that of "good guy" but given that you selected out a specific vendor as opposed to all those who sell wild caught snakes gives that as a questionable motive so how about revenge? That would cover not wanting money or replacement (who would want to risk another disease issue) but would provide motive to leap to getting the feds and Florida Fish and Wildlife involved before getting the results of the testing. Don't even have to get into speculating about animal rights involvement.

from post #37

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

Thats why we have to look at the preponderance of the evidence.The symptoms all showed up in new born water snakes, born at the same facility, but sent out to 3 different keepers. The snakes subsequent care was perfectly randomized - a (nearly) perfect double blind study.

Here we again have the anonymous others who supposedly that the same issues. As for the claim it is a perfect randomized double blind study we can toss that out right away as there were no controls ...

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

The fact that all had snakes develop the same symptoms in the same time frame makes it almost impossible that the disease was the result of captive conditions after the snakes left Underground. Plus the fact that we all have years of experience keeping Nerodia - in 2 of the cases I would say specializing in them.

Here we have the appeal to authority (the claims of experience) and that the other anonymous people's snakes had the same symptoms and supposedly the same time line (which would mean months of time without vet care etc (see above)).

post #56

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

For those who want to question silly details of timing of vet visits, or whether it is wise to buy water snakes from a wholesaler, or whether they can dig up a scientific journal that calls into question an assumption made years ago, all I can ask is that you stop. Take a deep breath and try to refocus on the issue at hand. Your inability to focus on the issue at hand makes you look silly.

Your opinions on these trivialities really aren't important right now

Here is the dismissal of the issues with the timelines, proof of disease origination, research that conflicts with his stated position and that only his information, opinion is what matters. Note he has still not provided names, or proof of claims of mortality in Illinois.

from post #71

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

Regarding Underground - The often misidentify the water snakes on their web site, interchanging the photos and descriptions. And since they sent you the wrong species, it makes me wonder if they even know the species they are dealing with, or if they just hope their customers don't :-)

You are the 3rd person who has reported snakes bought from Underground suddenly dying with no outward sign of disease or trauma. If it happens again it would be worth it to have a necropsy done - ask your exotic animal vet if they have the resources to do it. (Don't make the mistake of freezing the snake like I did. Refrigerate only and get to vet or diagnostic lab ASAP)

Regarding captive bred vs wild caught - Places like Underground often pay "collectors" - sometimes also referred to as "winos" - for wild caught animals. If the snakes are pregnant they are tossed into cattle tanks and kept crowded together until their babies are born. So hundreds or even thousands of babies are "captive born" in a very disease rich environment.

Here is the continuation of the trend where conjecture and speculation is attributed that the company is negligent on many fronts, that the people who collect for them are all alcoholics and again the reference to other unnamed people who supposedly have had snakes die without outward signs. Again the OP is using anonymous sources to support his argument.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

Snake skin blisters or SFD isn't caused by keeping a snake in damp conditions. Its caused by a pathogen that seems to thrive in warm, moist conditions.

Here is a redefinition of the disease process as well as contradicting himself in post #30 on conditions that are conducive to the disease process. This is noteworthy as it supports his continued attempts to spin a narrative and diagnosis without providing names and sources.

from post #72

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

I'm not "calling out some company" and I'm not presenting "shaky evidence" to FWS or anyone else. I'm here trying to gather evidence that might help us better understand the threat of SFD to both wild and captive snakes, and to better understand the role places like Underground Reptiles play in that threat.

Supposedly not calling out Underground despite accusing them of shipping sick animals, failing to correctly identify animals when sold, that they hire alcoholics to collect animals for them all without providing anything other than anonymous sources and problems with time lines under the guise of "gathering information". Given the standard used as evidence in presenting his "goal", it would be reasonable to question the validity of the claim that this is simply a "fact gathering' attempt.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

What I experienced with Underground, and the subsequent reading I did on the subject indicated to me that there *might* be a problem. All I'm trying to do is gather evidence that will help clarify the threat - if there is one.

If the goal was to gather information then all of the speculation, use of anonymous "others" and hyperbole would have been unnecessary. The consistent usage of those tactics often indicates an ulterior motive.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

All the agencies I've talked to have been very aware of the potential for this problem occurring. So believe me, any role I or the BOI plays will be insignificant. But if anything I do can help keep our native herp population safe from an emerging potentially lethal disease - even in a small way - I'll sure be glad to do it.

Here is the deflection of potential negative outcomes from his action before he had results.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

If I have to take some grief from people who put their own narrow, selfish interests ahead of the well-being of thousands or millions of wild herps, I guess I'm a big enough guy to handle that too

Again the redefining of everyone who does not agree with his agenda as having multiple negative personality traits while the OP is the one who is virtouos.

post #77

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

The fact that you squeak out a meager existence by peddling b-grade animals to unsuspecting 14 year olds doesn't mean you should be exempt from regulations designed to protect our collective wildlife resource, or our private collections. (See, both of us can play that off hand, denigrating comment game, can't we?)

Now, lets please get this thread back on topic: Underground Reptiles and SFD.

Again the pattern of insulting towards those who don't agree with him.

from post #90

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

Ed, much of your commentary here is about specifics of the fungus and the mods have asked us to move those area to discussion boards. So I won't address them here. I probably won't address them there either, but thats another story.

Again refusing to supply proof or names of those anonymous sources but again continuing the dismissive attacks on those who aren't accepting his word immediately.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

Insinuating that I have ulterior motives is annoying, but may be on topic. So I'll address it...

Again the claim that this is a fact finding and not out to cast aspersions despite the fact that the OP made multiple accusations about Underground specifically that are purely speculative or conjecture without ever providing proof.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

I hope that clears up any misunderstanding you may have of me and my motivations. But if it doesn't lets move specifics of the disease, and my character, to the discussion board, ok?

The goal to move the OP's motives to the other thread is to remove them from this thread while allowing the speculation about Underground to stand without being challenged. This movement of the challenge on the usage of conjecture, hyperbole and claims of knowledge by third party anonymous individuals all are relevant to this thread.

There is a trend by the OP under the guise of "fact finding" to attack the seller without meeting the burden of proof that is required on this forum as he repeatedly used anonymous sources without ever providing names, was inconsistent in his responses, made claims that when questioned were ignored or refused to be answered along with the deflections using insults to avoid answering the questions all mean that not only should the veracity of the OP's claims be exposed to skepticism but the claim that this is only a fact finding mission is clearly false.


some comments

Ed