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09-16-2004, 03:40 PM
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#31
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Hey, no probs here.
Chubby muffins you have! Thanks for the pics
Wanda
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09-16-2004, 06:46 PM
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#32
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Wanda, no matter how clean the facilities look, those petstores have a constant influx of animals that don't get quarantined BEFORE going out on the sales floor. It doesn't really do much good to the rest of the animals if a sick-looking one gets removed to the storage room after being on the floor. They've already possibly infected their cagemates and the enclosure itself. Considering the quick turnaround some of these stores have, it's possible these animals get sold before they have a chance to show symptoms. The new geckos I see at my local Petcos and Petsmarts are just a few days old, so I highly doubt they've been quarantined long enough. Sometimes it takes as long as 3 months for ANY signs of illness to show.
In addition to inadequate quarantine, I see different species moving from one cage to another during various parts of the year at my local Petcos & Petsmarts. I highly doubt that the employees spend their time thoroughly sterilizing the tanks before moving the species. This also adds to the spread of pathogens, as what is considered part of normal gut fauna for one species can totally devastate another animal.
Take bearded dragons for example. Many people consider all sorts of stuff, such as coccidia, to be acceptable for their GI tract, but the same doesn't hold true for geckos. The Leopard Gecko Manual spends an entire page talking about what a problem coccidia presents for leos. All it takes is for a cricket to eat the beardie's poop then wander over to the gecko enclosure to spread the disease. Or even for an employee to handle the geckos after cleaning out the beardie enclosure without washing hands in between. Or moving the geckos to the beardie enclosure without proper cage-cleaning. Or (egads!) housing the beardies and leos together, which petstores will do.
I would much rather buy from small time breeders who take the time to quarantine their animals BEFORE exposing them to their current colony, who keep their geckos on paper towels not sand, who do regular fecal exams to spot check their colony, who can give you a thorough explanation of your animals' parents and their parents' parents, and who want to hear regular updates about the animals you've bought from them. Many of these breeders will welcome you to check out their facilities if you're located near them, so make arrangements to pay them a visit! I've been able to do this a couple of times, and it's a lot of fun to see so many animals.
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09-16-2004, 09:50 PM
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#34
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So, since Petsmart cleans everyday, but Kelli doesn't, that automatically makes Petsmarts Leos healthier and better? Petco/petsmart may have super clean facilities and have Leos that appear healthy but I personally would rahter buy from Kelli or any other reputable breeder. I feel like there is a much better chance that the Leo is healthy and from good stock- not just a number from a mega producer. But I will admit I buy from Petco when the urge for a $19.99 PA hits. But I also realize that I am taking a chance with it being healthy. Just because those stores are inspected and appear clean does not mean their stock is healthy. There are times Leos come in and are gone within a few days.....that is not time enough to even see a problem.
I do support this local Petco though, they seem to care and try to do the right thing- as do most reputable breeders....
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09-17-2004, 12:32 AM
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#35
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Quote:
Xelda, does not matter how anyone butters it up: All stores (namely Petco, Petsmart) aren't filthier than breeders' quarters and all breeders' aren't cleaner than stores.
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I didn't say ALL breeders are cleaner than ALL stores. I'm saying you'd be very hard-pressed to prove to me that ANY petstore is parasite-free, whereas the parasite/disease risk gets reduced with breeders who actually do regular testing and deworming as well as regular cleaning and disinfecting. Maybe you need to talk to a veterinarian about some of these health issues I brought up. I wasn't "buttering up" anything but addressing real problems that occur quite frequently.
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09-17-2004, 08:40 AM
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#37
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No Wanda,
I think you chose the wrong site to come to to bash breeders, considering this site is used by many good, reputable breeders. If you honeslty believe all breeders are nothing but Leo farms with dirty conditions then we won't change your mind.
I'm sorry that you have such a bad opinion of Breeders. Maybe you had a bad experience with one. I can say there are great people here with healthy Leos that they love. Not dirty Leo farmers.....
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09-17-2004, 12:19 PM
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#38
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I too must be a horrible breeder because I keep my animals in plastic rack systems (Snake Shacks to be exact, I'm very happy with them) and only clean them 2-3 times a week.
Quote:
PS: I visited your website:eek3: Under all pop up windows and in between associates links, I did not find anywhere pictures of *your* breeding and husbandry facilities. B]
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I'm sorry, you weren't flaming any small breeders??? What's your comment mean then on a website I haven't touched in over a year (due to the fact I'm creating another via Dreamweaver)? I think you just need to back down and keep quiet. You've offended a number of people here.
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09-17-2004, 12:51 PM
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#39
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I have to agree. Small or medium breeders are the only way to go. I went into a Petco a week or so ago. They had GROWN Leos in with hatchlings. The poor little things were missing tails, toes, and a few were missing whole feet! Even my local Mom And Pop type Pet Store has Leos in bad conditions. I would buy from a small breeder in a heartbeat! Most of the people here on the Leo board are breeders, whether they are large or small. Granted, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but you shouldn't come onto a board and start attacking small, medium breeders because you think pet stores have better animals. If you think they are great, than just buy from them. Don't buy from the breeders.
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09-17-2004, 10:20 PM
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#40
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Wanda:
You posted that Petco sells their animals at reasonable prices?
The Petco I've been to surely doesn't have reasonable prices. They had emaciated baby ball pythons for $149.99. You can buy these from the importers in Florida for around $10. I've been to a facility in FL that imports animals and they had hundreds of BPs. They took each animal and placed it in a lunch bag with a fuzzy mouse and stapled the bag shut. The next day all the animals that ate are priced at about $20. All the animals that didn't eat are labeld nonfeeders and priced very low, like $8-$10 so they can move them before they die. Those balls were in the same shape the balls that Petco had for sale for $149.99.
There were teeny baby African Cichlids with ich for $12.99.
Mali uromastyx in a tank at 75° for $99.99.
Normal leopard geckoes for $80.00 housed with tokay, white spot, golden and a few other geckoes I can't remember which were all $20 and up. All but the leopards are obviously wild caught and very cheap to buy from the importers.
Parent raised and not tame peachfaced lovebirds for $89.00.
None of these prices are low or even reasonable for this area. A mom & pop store up the street has many of these same animals for far less and they know what kind of habitat to keep these animals in whereas Petco has no idea.
Oh and as for your repeated comment about everyone complaining but no one doing anything, I spoke to the manager on several occasions and even took him care sheets on the malis. He didn't give a crap.
I reported them to the USDA several times. I have no idea what was done, if anything. I don't even know if they're USDA certified, the person I talked to wouldn't or couldn't tell me. They certainly didn't have any USDA regulated animals like hedgehogs or sugar gliders so they're probably not USDA regulated.
Exactly what agency "regulates and inspects" these stores? I'll call immediately.
As for their cages being clean, they don't feed their animals so no food=no poop, very easy to clean.
Karen
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