BHB reptiles "het" didn't prove out, won't fix it

The problem with hets and I guarantee threads like this become more common. Unless the mother is a visual there is no way you can guarantee the baby to be a het unless the mother is a a non visual virgin. We are seeing more and more sperm retention clutches every year that are throwing people for a loop.

So; let's weigh the options?? What line visual ghost should he be bred to?? BHB needs to address this, I think?? What happened with the rest of this spider's siblings; hets, not hets?? Who should do it?? And; the biggie?? If he proves, definite public apology; and/or if he doesn't... What then?? Big $$$$$ seems reasonable after all that... I'd like to hear Cliff's options at this point for the very nice spider male; he is a busy character with a great job that will probably not come on here.. I will be helping him with this venture; not that he needs it really.. Hearing all reasonable requests for my man at this point..

Originally Posted by David Bellis

Unreal. Thanks for the infraction too. I guess my ads don't generate enough money to warrant even asking Brian for a response. Oh wait that's right, he's a big breeder he was right before I made the post.

Really? You went there?

Have you EVER seen the staff here ask ANYONE to respond to ANY BOI thread?

Here is my 2 cents on this thread not that it matters much. First of all, the animal never should have been sold without some type of photo genetic guarantee. If you cant take a few minutes to take a pic and type up a few lines of text on a $1500 animal then please do everyone in this industry a favor………….DO NOT SALE HETS!

A genetic guarantee is there to protect both the buyer and the seller. If there was one done on this animal then everyone here stating that this animal could have been switched etc. would have no basis on those claims. Also that genetic guarantee would be valid even if the snake switches hands.

I know we are talking about one of the largest ball python breeders in the world here with 1000's of animals and many employees. And that is why I think a mistake could have been made very easily. I’m not saying there was one but there definetly could have been. For example retained sperm, label accidentally switched, disgruntled employee, just to name a few.

And yes there is always that chance of the ghost lines not being compatible. I personally highly doubt that but it is possible I guess. Brian himself has said in his emails that his ghost have lined up with the most common ghost lines out there such as Nerd, Bells etc. which leads me to believe this is more then likely not the case.

Now onto everyone stating that if he bred the male to a visual then he would have a lot more compelling evidence. I can not see how that is. Even running Het to visual you only have a 50% chance of getting a visual from each egg. Granted it is a 25% increase but its still a 50/50 shot with every egg. The OP has a total of 20 eggs from breedings with no visuals it is possible that these were just very bad odds. But even Brian himself has stated it was unlikely and unlikely enough to warrant some type of compensation on his part.

I think this post should have not said his hets did not prove out because as soon as he accepted responsibility of the male not proving out and said he was going to compensate the OP with animals then all the het questions are irrelevant. He said he would do something and did not follow through with it. I think this is more of a lack of communication / customer support issue. If you are too busy to answer a phone call in a timely manner then hire some help. If you cannot handle a customer complaint within six months like he did here then clear your plate a little. I think it is so common to see these so called big breeders quick to answer the phone for the sale but if there is a problem they are all of a sudden way to busy to return a call or email.

As far as my opinion on a fair compensation on a het animal not proving out. I feel the only person who should be compensated is the last person with the animal. When David sold that animal to Cliff he received his compensation which was the price that Cliff paid him for the animal. If he wanted compensation from Brian he should have not sold the animal. Nor do I think he should have sold it to Cliff knowing that he has some doubt about its genetic authenticity. I cant tell you how many animals I have here that I purchased over the years that I have not proved out so I can not sale them unless I sale them as nothing more then normal’s. My own personal genetic guarantee is this. If my customer breeds a het animal from me for two successful breeding and does not get a visual I replace the het animal with two hatchling visuals which ever sex they prefer. I feel it is only fair that they get one visual from each of there breeding. I also have never had to use this guarantee because all of my hets have proven out. But that is my policy and it is there not only to protect my customer but also to protect myself god forbid I ever find myself in a similar situation as this one.

So everyone here who is coming down on the OP I think you need to put yourself in his shoes . He was only asking for what Brian agreed to do for him. Brian is the one that should be stepping up to the plate here. Or at the very east keeping the lines of communication open. Just my opinion. Paul Wyble @ Steel City Exotics

Great opinion Mr. Wyble.. I like your thinking..

I have done business with both David and Brian, and can honestly say, I would only do business with David, again.

That being said, it seems like David and Brian had an agreement where Brian "admitted" that the Spider might not be a Het, and there was a monetary agreement on what Brian would give to David. I do not know if this involved the return of the snake to Brian, or if Brian would actually want the snake back. So, it looks like Brian does owe David whatever was agreed upon, but not followed through on, by Brian.

That being said, I do think there is still the possibility of the snake being a Het. It was never bred to a Visual Ghost, and it has been brought up that there are incompatible lines of Ghost. I think it is easy when you are the buyer of a Het that does not prove out, to want the world for your "lost" income on babies you had envisioned producing. The fact is, a 100%Het bred to a 100% Het could yield zero visual babies. So you really cannot say that a Het to Het breeding would give you this or that, and you lost money here and there on babies you could have produced. If you want to count your money before the eggs hatch, buy visuals. Buying Hets is inheirently risky for both parties.

Yeah, it is no fun for the buyer or seller when a Het does not prove out. But, when is it proven that a Het has proven NOT to be a Het? That could take years. I know a guy who did Het Albino x Het Albino BOAS and got ONE Albino out of 30 plus snakes. If that one Albino was not produced, he would think he got bum Hets.

I think if you respect a breeder enough to spend your hard earned money on a Het animal, if something goes wrong and it does not prove out, respect eachother enough to work out a solution, and know that accidents happen, and nobody was out to screw anyone.

Originally Posted by wyblep

Nor do I think he should have sold it to Cliff knowing that he has some doubt about its genetic authenticity.

Read the thread again. He sold it to Cliff before the clutches hatched from the males first season breeding. Therefore no knowledge of genetics... or lack there of.

Just my two cents:

I think it's ridiculous that a BOI thread was made about BHB in this scenario. Brian is a friend, but he's also human, and it is 100% possible a mistake was made.. However, I would again like to comment/reiterate.

1. Not all Hypo/Ghost Lines are Compatible!!!
2. Het to Het Breedings can potentially take YEARS to prove out!!!
3. Brian offered to make things right.
4. Brian is working hard in the entertainment industry as well as in government with USARK trying to raise awareness and help us as a country keep our snakes as pets--if he takes a month to respond to an e-mail, I would personally cut him a little slack, because sometimes in our personal correspondence it DOES take that long. Yes he's a big breeder and has a lot on his plate and so on and etc, but he did offer to make this right and I'm sure in time, he will. I know I'm human and I get busy and I forget things, too. Use the phone, if it's that urgent. Repeatedly.
5. Agree with other posters, because Brian offered to help the OP even when he doesn't have the snake anymore speaks volumes of his sound business practices and I can't believe this thread was made to begin with.

/rambling 2 cents,

As it is, I wouldn't buy from either the op or BHB. Even though I too think it was premature, BHB apparently agreed to compensate the op so he should do so in a timely manner. I wouldn't buy from the op just because of his whiny attitude on here.

Agreeing to help and then doing nothing rings a bit hollow.

Dave