BHB reptiles "het" didn't prove out, won't fix it

I can understand that Brian did agree to give him something in return, but he seems to be getting a little greedy about what he should get... an Enchi Bee???

Originally Posted by Mister Internet

So... you really think, in the above scenario, that my friend has any right to say anything to the original retailer? I don't think any reasonable person would say that they do. Unless this snake was sold with a 5 year/50,000 mile warranty, I don't think for one second the OP had any right bothering BHB about this. He should have gotten his refund from his "friend"... some friend, if he won't step in and make this right for David during all this time...

I'm the "Friend" that you are implicating and I take offense to that. I've done my best to stay out of this thread as much as possible because I still value my business and personal relationship but both David and Brian and fear the more I post the more I risk alienating one or both of them. And I don't know what I can add to this thread that will help reach a resolution for either side. I'm not sure what I can really do in this scenario. If there is something I can do I will happily do it.

Not sure if you read my post about the details of the original purchase of the spider het male back on page 7 but if you haven't read it I'll just re-iterate some of it here. David (the OP) and I talk often about our plans. I wanted a pied female he was thinking of selling and at the same time I had an order in the works with BHB. David says he too had talked to BHB about an adult male spider het ghost because David has big het females that he wants to breed so he doesn't want to wait and raise a baby.

So since I have the order in the works with him I call Brian and ask about the male for David, that's even how Brian knows what adult male spider het ghost I'm talking about. I basically tell Brian, David was talking to you about this spider het ghost male and David and I work on some projects together so we thought I'd see if he'd give me a discount over the price he quoted David since I have a sizable order already in the works. It's not like I called Brian and said Oh and add a baby spider het ghost male to my order, I had to describe the specific animal that David and Brian had previously discussed. So all three of us know exactly what's going on. I'm buying an animal for David from Brian to save some money. I think the main reason that Brian didn't ship the spider het directly to David is simply then Brian is shipping twice on one sale and shipping isn't inexpensive. He had already discounted the price on the animal it would be a lot to ask to then say "Can you go ahead and lose more money by shipping directly to David?".

Had I known at the time that something like this could have happened I can now say I wouldn't have done it but at the time it seemed harmless; I get my order from Brian, and a Pied from David, and save $250, David gets the spider het ghost he wanted from BHB and remaining cash from me for the pied girl, and Brian made another $1500 on top of what he was already making from me. At the time it seemed there were no losers here. Since it was Brian I never even thought to ask for a photo ID. I can't even count the number of amazing animals I've received from Brian over the year and David didn't ask me to get a photo ID so the thought never entered my head to ask for one. I have other hets from BHB in my collection and I have never asked for a photo ID on them. I recently made a trade with Bradford Cole Herp for a Lesser Het Stripe male. I didn't ask for a photo ID from him either because I trust him. After I had received the lesser het Cory did ask me if I'd like a photo ID. Here's his email and my response: (I know this doesn't have direct bearing on this thread but just as essentially a character witness to support my stance about photo IDs when dealing with somebody I know and trust).

Re: Message about: Proven Breeder Morphs - male and female
From:
CHRISTOPHER HUFFMAN <huff747@sbcglobal.net>
To: "Bradford Cole, Inc." <sales@bcherp.com>
If you want to put something together that would be fine. No rush. I don't need it for me and I don't see myself getting rid of him until I have he's produced a male lesser genetic stripe that's ready to breed so it'll probably be a while before I'd be looking to sell him.

Thanks.

Chris

From: "Bradford Cole, Inc." <sales@bcherp.com>
To: Chris Huffman <huff747@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Fri, October 22, 2010 8:24:24 AM
Subject: RE: Message about: Proven Breeder Morphs - male and female

Chris-

I totally spaced giving you a photo verification, would you like one? I can use the pics I sent you previously.

Thanks in advance,

Cory

Bradford Cole, Inc.
(317)663-3006

www.bcherp.com


As I said at the beginning of this post if there is something I can do I would happily try as I hate seeing a Bad Guy thread for Brian who I think is a stand up guy and I also hate seeing David worked up as I know David too is a great guy and some of his posts have helped to form others opinions about him which I don't think accurately represent his true self. I have racked my brain about what I can do to help but I can't come up with anything. I know that what I sent David is exactly what I received from Brian but I have no means to prove that. How could anybody prove that in this scenario? I've provided David with the original receipt from BHB, all parties knew what was going on when the d

I'm trying to remain impartial and will happily share my opinions on both Brian and David and answer any and all questions.

My opinions for what it's worth:
Brian - Brian is a great guy. He's very helpful and has always provided top notch animals. That said Brian can be very very hard to get ahold of. I've probably dealt with Brian more than David has so I'm use to a deal with Brian taking months to close. I had one deal with Brian that was started in Aug 09 and finally closed in Jan or Feb 10. I'm sure he closed hundreds of other deals during that same period of time in days but it didn't bother me as I knew eventually it would close. I would email, call, etc. sometimes go weeks without hearing as he was busy with shows and breeding. But he did come through. It didn't stop me from picking up a champagne from him just a couple months ago (a deal that closed in a matter of days this time). He has a lot of irons in the fire, sometimes that can be a bad thing but I am very laid back so 5 months to close a deal with him didn't bother me, but it apparently did bother David.

David - David too is a great guy. David too has provided me top notch animals. David included myself (and Cliff) on the original email he sent to Brian when he had two clutches from hets that failed to produce a visual so once again, all parties were aware. That said I still think (and I have told David this) that before it went this far the male should have been bred to a visual female. I saw somebody post that het to het is 25% chance of visual and het to homozygous is 50% so they didn't see much of a difference in the two but I would disagree. In het x het both parents have a 50% chance of passing the gene on so to get a visual from het x het you have to get lucky with both parents passing it to the same offspring. In het x homo that homozygous parent is going to give the gene to 100% of the offspring so you only have to get lucky on that other parent. And it only has to give it to one baby out of the clutch and you'll have a visual. So I know the odds aren't that much different but how you arrive at those odds is vastly different. If David had come to me before posting this thread on the BOI I would have told him that I thought Brian would come through and even though the months seemed long to him to give it more time.

As I said before I can't see a good way for me to help this situation much. The animal was never for me and both Brian and David knew that, I had it in my possession long enough to make sure David was ready to receive him, it was probably 4 or 5 days tops. I probably received it midweek and shipped it out the following Monday. Some of the suggestions I've seen in the thread I don't think are viable either. If the spider het ghost is sent to me and I prove it out (as I've seen suggested) then a portion of the people viewing this thread are going to think I had kept the spider het male originally and just used him when I "proved" this male so I don't think that solves or proves anything. The best thing that I can see happen is that somebody breeds this male to a visual and it proves. If I had a big visual ghost female available I would even make her available for a public breeding trial but I have 1 orange ghost female and she has been paired with a lemon blast het ghost male that I got from BHB. I haven't seen a lock yet but that doesn't mean there hasn't been a lock so I don't think if she where to be sent for a breeding trial that the results could be trusted unless she throws an actual honeybee in the clutch.

Sorry for the long post, hopefully some of this helps.

Originally Posted by Mister Internet

He just complained to the wrong person for his refund... granted, that person out of the goodness of their heart agreed to do something for him, and NOW SHOULD. But it should have been his "friend" giving him the refund all along.

I'm not even sure what I could refund. When I sent David the snake I also sent him a check for additional money for the pied female. So would I return the pied female? And would I get the cash portion I sent refunded to me?

Originally Posted by Mister Internet

In fairness to the OP, that's not the point. If he didn't receive what he purchased, he absolutely deserves a refund, regardless if he was able to "salvage" the situation to a degree.

He just complained to the wrong person for his refund... granted, that person out of the goodness of their heart agreed to do something for him, and NOW SHOULD. But it should have been his "friend" giving him the refund all along.

Did you read the whole thread? The OP was already in contact with BHB about this particular snake. The only reason he bought it from Chris was Chris already had an order in with BHB so by combining his order with Chris's order they both got a better deal. BHB knew exactly where the snake was going, and that was to David. So yes he has every right to go to BHB for resolution.

Wow I hear a lot of people saying they feel Brian isn’t responsible for any compensation. I think there is nothing further then the truth. He accepted this when he offered to compensate this guy with animal’s period! He should do what he said he would do. I do however feel that he should not be responsible for compensating multiple people on this. When the original poster sold this animal he accepted responsibility for it. Brian should only compensate one person. If Brian is taking care of the OP then the OP should take care of Cliff. I feel Cliff should receive a honeybee for his breedings. This is how I would handle this situation. Paul Wyble @ Steel City Exotics

Originally Posted by Mister Internet

I actually have no idea what you just said.

What I AM saying is that when I buy something from a retailer, in an industry where there is no implied or actual multi-buyer or lifetime "warranty", then I am responsible for the representation of said item when it leaves my possession... ESPECIALLY if I've taken money for it!

Think of it this way... I buy an ingot of 10 troy ounces of 24K gold for investment purposes from a well-respected, nationally-recognized retailer. I don't personally know enough about gold to tell a 24K ingot from an 18K ingot, so I take the retailer's word on it, as I should. Now, let's say I decide I need money worse than gold two years later, and I sell it to my friend... when I sell it, I tell him "hey, this is 10 troy ounces of 24 carat gold". I HAVE NOW BECOME THE SELLER, simple as that. I have represented a product, and taken money for it... what that product IS or IS NOT, at that point, is my responsibility to my friend to insure. If my friend goes and gets it checked out and finds out it's only 18 carat gold, he doesn't get to go whine to the original retailer. He didn't buy it from the retailer, the product was not represented to him by the retailer, and the retailer doesn't know my friend from Adam, and SHOULD protect himself by dealing only with me, his original customer.

If my friend has a problem with the gold ingot, he brings it back to ME, the ONLY PERSON ON EARTH that has ever told him it's "24 carat gold". When I refund my friend, *I* go to the original retailer and tell him we've got a problem.

So... you really think, in the above scenario, that my friend has any right to say anything to the original retailer? I don't think any reasonable person would say that they do. Unless this snake was sold with a 5 year/50,000 mile warranty, I don't think for one second the OP had any right bothering BHB about this. He should have gotten his refund from his "friend"... some friend, if he won't step in and make this right for David during all this time...

Let me break it down for.

I have male double het axanthic/clown for sale.

U want it.

U inquire about it and let me know ur interest.

Ur neighbor just happens to be placing an order with me.
U ask ur neighbor to inquire about it being added to his order.

Ur neighbor asks me to do so, and I oblige. No one is left in the dark, I know the animal is for someone else and people are combining to save some money.

I send said animal to ur neighbor, u recieve and three years later breed it to a het axanthic, and a het clown.

No visuals are produced what so ever.

After more breeding trials, u still get nuthin but normals.

Based on what u said, I dont owe u crap.

Based on how I do business, I replace the animal and try to make my customer happy. Doesnt matter to me if they are a second hand customer or not, they are still a customer.

Its not like we can stick a gauge in a snake and see what genetics lie beneath. If we could there would be no such thing as possible hets. Your more than welcome to look a ignot of gold under a microscope to see if it is represented correctly before u buy it. If u had the ability to check and make sure it was 24k and failed to do so before u sold then yea u owe ur friend. If u want to say ur new to gold then research sumthin before u buy. Very poor example. The only way we can know an animals genetics is to trust the breeder. And unlike ur other lacking example with the warranties, genetics doesnt expire. Genetics doesnt run down and need to be maintained. It stays solid.

Oh and Cliff should receive a refund for the purchase price. That is what I feel is fair for both parties involved.

Originally Posted by Mister Internet

In fairness to the OP, that's not the point. If he didn't receive what he purchased, he absolutely deserves a refund, regardless if he was able to "salvage" the situation to a degree.

He just complained to the wrong person for his refund... granted, that person out of the goodness of their heart agreed to do something for him, and NOW SHOULD. But it should have been his "friend" giving him the refund all along.

No his friend should not give him a refund. His friend did not produce the snake, didnt put his name on it, and bought with BHB knowing it was for someone else.

I still fail to see how a breeder who claims to have such and such doesnt have to be held liable for their claims.

I would also like to take a minute to respond to a few people that are posting they feel because the animals are hets that they feel that hets are a gamble so the seller should not be responsible for anything. That is a crock of ----. If you buy hets from a reputable breeder then you will eventually produce the visual form of the desired morph.

All recessive projects start off with hets, so hets need to be in the marketplace. Sellers of Het animals should be held accountable for any Het animals they sale. If they are not willing to guarantee there animals genetics then they should sale them as nothing more then normals.

I think all of us as buyers need to be responsible buyers when it comes to het animals and only buy animals with a photo genetic guarantee. If we all did this then everyone will have no choice but to make paperwork up. Hopefully we could eventually make the genetic paperwork an industry standard which I myself feel it should be. Paul Wyble @ Steel City Exotics

OKAY im just going to say it just cause you breed a 100% het to another 100% doesnt mean your going to get that visual trait.