Rian at Underground Reptiles BAD GUY

i hear everything your saying, i hadnt seen a response from you - from their response, i am only playing devils advocate because it does affect me as a buyer and i need as many facts as i can get to form authentic opinions, not hearsay and third party info,
i do hear you, i think the cursing part " I cursed after I was accused of killing her because that was the farthest thing from the truth and I was very upset which prompted Rian to hang up on me." was understandable in this case if that was the case, dealing with people and using language seems often to build walls real quick, i use it loosely, dont really care, but some people thats the end all, and really take the meanings to heart,
oh well, point is at this point your options are varied, now that you have them here and we as witness, approach them again in a forward, and polite manner and see if you can get resolve, do it email, or certified snail mail so you have physical evidence, if your not getting your money back for the animal send them an invoice for half the vet bill they agreed to, and a request for a perfectly healthy uro in credit due, maybe you both can end this, but unless your willing to take legal action, ifcc, bb, fbi, credit cards, paypal, post office, or any others you can find"its alot of work" ive done it and won, but maybe you can comprimise and as it sucks, you can still end up not as bad as you stand right now , with nothing, good luck

may have been injured, does not seem to play in the scheme of things when reading Rians reply. The fact that the buyer waited until the inevitable occurred did. Just out of curiosity, how did you pay for the Uro? Sometimes the right thing may not necessarily be the best thing to do. Your intentions as honorable as they may be has left you in a no win situation. You are out the vets bill, the money and the Uro. A lousy situation, and Rian should have replaced the animal, no questions asked.

I am thinking that Rian is going on the assumption that the animal was healthy and he did not realize it was injured, bite marks take several days to state swelling and inflame joints.

I don't think anyone at this point can question this animal was injured and an injury that was infected, so not from transit to a new home and jarring.

Damien,

Its nice that you as a "big Spender with them" got a response to your email, but mine and some others were several hours earlier and we have never heard from them and the emails were not rude or insulting as you can see mine posted earlier... perhaps another indicator of concern only for where the money is and not the customer or animal.

I am glad you did join this thread, and perhaps you are seeing a different side to their business ethics, it also enables us to see that side also... thank you.

Does anyone know who the Owner is of this business? If not Greg or Rian, I think someone should contact them.

The prime fact is they did sell an injured animal, whether they knew it at the time or not, they certainly know it now... you can also see the old scarring on her back...... this was NOT a perfect animal, the fact they knew there was old bite marks, and don't overlook the partially healed mouth that you can see in the picture the day she arrived. These should have been a red flag to anyone and they had to realize that.

They as experienced keepers if they had bothered to respond to his emails and offer of pictures could have helped the animal and new owner....... they had already decided that they were not going to do anything at that point.... it makes me wonder what they really did know.

Peter,

You need to pursue this with the owner and if that gets you no where, other's on here have advised what legal steps and purchase wise steps you can take, as someone that has worked with the court system for years, I can assure you, you would prevail...... but, a shame you have to take man's courts to get justice over people that claim to be godly

This reinforces my opinion of people that advertise their godliness.... It seems to be advertised openly but not practised in reality when there is nothing in it financially for them

with their ethics, i am only here because i need to have answers to my questions on theur ethics, phone call info means little to me because its hearsay, only written documentation answers questions, so far they have put up no evidence, only statement, they have done good in our transactions as of now, if the end comes and peter hasnt been taken care of they will indeed lose my buisiness, i just feel they need to be given every opportunity to defend themselves before they get toasted on the boi, so far they havent presented any documents only hearsay, we shall see, i dont know them, i dont do the religious thing whatsoever period so i really dont have any urges to know them, i just liked their "purdy snakes " bought them , and have them still, other than the two replacements, now in the other threads below they have many who have done well with them, so from that perspective its only reasonable for me, us , them to get a good response in defence, i believe fully that the buyer should get a new animal for free, and get half the money for the animals vet bill, even though they did want it back, they really have no tos, this is very much to the buyers advantage, i would do the email-letter thing and see what happens , so far yes they do look bad in regaurds to what the buyer said they said,

Please note my rules addendum concerning posting links within messages on this site:

Rules Addendum

This rule started out in reference to ads posted, but has been expanded to cover any information posted on an external website.

Several people have posted links in this thread to information they are intending to use as evidence in a dispute in this forum. This has been addressed in the past and the actual text needs to be provided within a message, either as cut and pasted text, or as a graphic image of a screen shot.

Please note that the intent of this rule is to keep the evidence captured as a snapshot, and not something that can be edited or deleted at a later date if the originator of that information finds it in their best interest to do so. That cannot happen once the information, in its entirety, has been posted here in the manner requested above.

Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.

damien,

I agree with your advice of the email thing, I think Peter should email them outlining a proposal of what would resolve this to his satisfaction, from what I see in this thread, I think he would be more than fair. That leaves the ball in their court to see really what kind of, not only business, but people they are.

I also agree that this is past the phone communication point and should be handled in writing, so it is not a he said... he said factor and responsible or irresponsible actions based on "in the heat of the response to something someone says"

I do not agree with their comment and have seen no indicator in Peter's actions or this thread, that his only concern was money..... the opposite in fact and their comment to that I think was very poor and VERY unchristian.

CheriS, a southern minister's daughter who works in Fraud for the State of Florida... two things I know well.

I would like to say that I have followed Peter's post on KS for well over a year now including his saga with Boulder, his first Egyptian Uro.

He obtained Boulder as a rescue who had been badly burned. He and his vet managed to rehabilitate the animal. This is not an easy task with uromastyx and I have every confidence in both Peter's and his vet's abilty.

Uromastyx are much more sensative to changes such as cold temperatures and moving to a new home. Extreeme care must be taken to acclimate them properly and often times the stress and trauma of changing environments can push an already weak uro to the point of no return.

I was one of the breeders with whom Peter was in contact during Pebbles ordeal. I believe that he did the right thing with her in not sending her back to them. The trauma of the cold, as well as changing environment/housing again, I believe would have certainly ment her end. She had a much better chance of survival staying with Peter.

It would be nice if all of us could be callus enough that we could just send a sick animal back to the originator for them to deal with, but some of us just care too deeply for that.

This isn't a case where a buyer saw an injured animal and took it in as a rescue instead of leaving it for the seller to deal with. This is a case where a customer ordered a "perfectly healthy" animal that arrived less than "perfectly healthy". The seller was notified within a reasonable amount of time of the situation and told the buyer they would help with vet costs. When the buyer decided to take them up on it, they changed their tune and what they offered was detrimental to the animal. This is simply bad business.

I believe they need to reimburse Peter for the portion of the vet bills they agreed to pay, plus a refund for Pebbles as she was clearly not what they had represented and Peter has the vet bills/statement to show this.

I sent them an email in order to try and settle this situation. Here is a copy:

Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 01:12:27 -0500
From: Peter Ingoldsby <>
[ Add to Address Book | Block Address | Report as Spam ]
To: <Rian@undergroundreptiles.com>
Subject: Regarding our dispute over the egyptian Uromastyx



Rian:

This letter is an attempt to come to an agreement and finalize the transaction for the Egyptian uromastyx I was sold. This whole ordeal has become somewhat of a spectacle and I think you and I, as well as many reptile hobbyists from around the nation, would like to see it resolved. My proposal is that you give me a full refund for the $310 that was charged to my credit card by Underground Reptiles. I was sent a faulty product to say the least and am obviously dissatisfied. Under this proposal, I will take responsibility for the vet bills which total $280.35. Under these circumstances you would only lose whatever money it cost you to acquire her and I would lose the $280.35 I spent on veterinary bills. Considering you sold her to me for a price similar to my expense, your loss is almost definitely lower than mine. Obviously this is not a favorable situation for either of us but I feel it is more than fair given the circumstances and I am sure we will both prefer it to the more lengthy and costly alternative. If you would like physical proof of her death I will pay to have her body shipped to your facility. If you would rather not, I can fax you a copy of the signed authorization for euthanasia, take pictures of the body, have you talk to my vet or whatever other method you would prefer.

I will post this email on the Fauna Classifieds Board of Inquiry. If you want to make a formal statement or apology along with your agreement to my proposal, I will be sure to post your message pending my refund. However, if you want to be rude and/or offensive, I will post this response as well. If you want to ignore me, I will tell everyone that is the case. If this proposal is agreed upon, I will call the Better Business Bureau to explain that the problem has been settled, rescind my claim of fraudulence submitted to my credit card company, and inform any other institutions I have contacted that the matter has been resolved once I receive the refund. If you want to talk further I would prefer to do it over email, as we do not seem to be “compatible” with phone conversation and would like to keep a record of our exchange.

Sincerely,

Peter Ingoldsby

Rich,

I agree with your Rules Addendum that all responses need to be on the BOI and not linked off to another site. Hopefully the owners will do this, but if they do not, I have screen captured their response and can send it to you.

I think now that Peter is aware, you will add the pictures of Pebbles also.

I have to pipe in so to speak..... I've known Rian for many years. I was in the "business" even before he was. Rian is a good person. Yeah, I know but, before you get on me for sticking up for him this: He's made his mistakes, he's paid for it and.... I don't for a moment think he's a "wanna be Christian!" However, we don't know how this was actually handled. I would agree that seeing the facts that it seems Rian SHOULD take care of this problem. However, i've known Rian for many years and when it comes down to it... He's always done me right. Then again I'm one of the "old timers" now. I cannot fairly say that I can vouch for both sides of this story fairly! However, I honestly believe that if cooler heads prevail both sides can come up to a settlement. Just take a breath and have patience. I would be very surprised that you would not get a better response. If you didn't I would be disappointed. That may not mean much to most people but, between me and Rian that means something! He's not the entirely horrible person you think he is.... Good luck. Hope it works out for both sides. * I can't correct my spelling!!! Glitches!!