One More Reason to Test for Adenovirus

Cheri,
Once again you're jumping the gun, and making assumptions without having the full story. I started working with a group of 2.2 trans that were imported from germany in December of 2000. At the time I was a full time employee of sandfire, and breeding dragons on the side. Bob and allen both decided that it was best for me to raise these trans indoors because of the fear of the sun killing them. These origional trans were not "sickly", but were suffering from mbd, had some vision problems, and had this odd goofy-like stance. Later in 2001, I got one of the males to breed to an orange female, and produced some suprisingly healthy hets, with a few having corkscrew tails and kinked backs. I gave sandfire half of the babies, and kept the other half for myself. These hets were bred to each other the following year, which is inbreeding, but I needed to in order to produce them. This same year, I got one of the female trans imports to lay a clutch of eggs fathered by a hypo male. Every one of the babies in the clutch had corkscrew tails and/or crooked backs except for one male. In 2003, I bred the two semi-unrelated hets together which produced the trans Sandfire was selling at daytona that year. Paul Morlock took six trans for himself, two were trades with his lines, and the remaining four were never paid for. Later that year, Paul disappeared, and neither bob or I have heard from him since. Paul did produce a few trans from a group of hypos which is mainly what he is referring to. The hets that I got from him on trade both died, and as far as I know, he was never able to get his line up and going. His trans were hypotrans(trans with clear nails). The trans I started off with were normal trans, like what most of them are today. The reason why I didn't put myself out in the open is mainly because I was working for another breeder, and didn't want to create a "conflict of interest". I have a lot of respect for bob, and wouldn't want to ruin our relationship. The main problem with the trans, and why it's taken me so long to have many of them available is because I had to remove as many negative traits as I could. Do my transluscents look sickly?
Cheri, as what was posted before, you need to refer people to the breeder rather than everyone getting third party info from you. "This I know you know" garbage is just your way of trying to intimidate people. This would be like me saying that "I know that you know that breeders are also testing positive for corona virus, along with adeno". Did I just open a can of worms?! Josh

seems to be an awful lot to respond to that I sure do not remember the way someone is making it now.

Vicki, I have tried to understand your post #63 and also had 3 other people try. Much like that thread you link to that no one could figure out so did not respond to and THAT is when "Private correspondence was initiated" by me in response to your last post on that thread, to ask you to explain what you meant. I still did not understand what you meant and as best I can determine you say it is a "what if"... but anyway, again can you explain this as none of us can figure out again what you are talking about?

Lets start by addressing Cheri’s latest mis-quote :
Originally Posted by CheriS
I have a problem with people who tend to present only the information that supports their opinions or beliefs. Surely, we can make the time to address this publicly…

That is not a quote (or misquote as you claim... by me)... that is something you said in post #52. what is this suppose to mean? We thought maybe this is something in #52 that you are saying I said before, but again, can not find it so was this just a typo as a quote attributed to me that you acutally made?

Back to your question - Sorry, but we would not post a name publicly any faster than you would offer the names of people with positive confidential test results. Suffice to say, Pete did not only acquire his initial stock from overseas - but also purchased dragons from various sources within the USA

You did post his name, not me and no one said anything excluding that he purchasing dragons in the US, or was the first here with this virus......your point here or are you adding words that were never said by me?

The adenovirus was identified and documented in vitticeps in 1996 by Dr. Jacobson - then found “heavily” in the captive population shortly thereafter? Finding that odd we asked a few pointed questions of the appropriate people and discovered that the trail of information leads back to the early 90’s, if not late 80’s… Before Pete.

I said the BULK that infected the popular lines today, not who introduced it to the US, I think I have said that 3 times now, NOT what you are saying it's public knowlegde that there were prior cases not only in the US but also Europe, New Zealand and Australia, I thought I had also made that clear in this thread and I know I emailed you or posted the same to you long ago, not only with vitticeps but barbata and lawsons.. Again, you are adding words to what I said......if you know something we don't please say it yourself

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheriS
…in fact the first generations of RedFlames were some of the most heartiest and largest dragons ever produced as are many of the GG lines.
YOU REPLIED:
Really? Did you observe this by first-hand experience Cheri? Did you purchase a 1st generation Red Flame from Pete?
We did… several actually, and “in fact” from our experience the above statement could not be further from the truth.

That's interesting as the first generations being nice and later crosses not so nice came from not only people that bought them, supplied photos to us that show some really nice animal, archives online, but also yourself to me in an email Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 2:20 PM
EMAIL FROM VICKI:
> "Flame" from Chris Allen came from us. He is a Redflame X Sandfire
> cross. So if you breed that male to something - say a FlaminTiger you
> may not realise that their fathers are the same dragon. Here is the
> break down
> Redflame came directly from Pete Weis the first year he had them. (they
> were nice red to start, but stresssed easily
> so I think he crossed them out because they never looked the same
> afterwords.)
> The Sandfire came from Nick (east coast rep for sandfire before Paul
> took over)
* a note on the above statement,, Chris Allen states " Flame was from Chuck Tornetta, not the Dachiu and that he was from Chuck's own pairing of dragons. Flame is from weis redflame and sandfire's sandfire red lines"

So I guess there is always the possibility that you got some dragons mixed up since he said Flame did not come from you and maybe there is more confusion in the quality of the first generation Redflame dragons that you bought and initially told me were nice. I do not know, I can only go on what you and others said about the them prior. If you have changed your take on that now, or what you prior claimed, I can edit that information,

Another note: You yourself call Paul Sandfire's east coast rep, he had the trans, he was breeding them, he has MANY post on KS in the archives and he claims he produced them.... he did not have to have LONG ARMS to be their East Coast Rep, sorry about Josh who was not mentioned anywhere at that time, by Paul or you? He may have worked for Sandfire, I have no idea, he was not a part of any conversations then with you, Paul or Bob and I did discuss Paul with Bob and Kevin Dunne in 2005, they claim he was their rep and had the trans...........Paul ALWAYS described the original trans as non thrivers, sickly and dying.. if he made that up and lied, why did you in your email of 2005 call him their East Coast Rep and in 2003 he posted many times about the trans and how weak they were..... it's there in KS links I posted earilier in his own post. We know that many of them test positive now for Adeno, I have no idea if they did back them or if any necropsy was done, it's a moot point now. Again, I do not see what you are getting at or claiming my misstatements over... or why?

The only thing *I* present to the community about how to handle infected dragons is the same as Dr Wentz and Dr Jacobson, is taken from their published works, with their consent, both appearing in full body on my website for anyone to check, so they are being presented by themselves, not me. If you choose to spin that along with all these other added words into something it is not, that is your choice.

Cheri, did you edit, delete parts or choose not to mention additional information provided in consecutive correspondences with Dr. Jacobson?

NO, and even implying by questioning such on here tells me and I hope others something about the depths some sink to.

It is very insulting to even have to answer such a filthy question, but its there(why does that not surprise me) so.......HE chaged the way references were listed and did replace that one with the original one, but it did not alter the content of the message. As far as consecutive correspondences with Dr. Jacobson, I talk to him on the phone and in email about many things, including his yapping dogs he loves, when he walks them. Have I transcribed those and put them public, no, they were private conversations or emails.. and your point is?

If you have something the rumor mill is grinding, please just ask it outright, it makes it much easier on everyone.... remember what I discussed with you in email about the rumor mill and you & Rob? Supposly telling people who tested positive that all breeders have this and to just sell them? I am not into playing those games and perfer to address the suppose source direct, even if they lie at least it was put out there and no snide comments, implications or more lies spread behind someones back.

This time, the information is getting out. You know, this could have all been stopped or controlled at least, years ago if people admitted there was a problem and warned/educated other, tested and did not sell animals they know or have strong reason to think they are infected, there probably would not be the Wendy's, Suzanne's, Tere's or the many others dealing with this from the same line, that is what I object to and is MY PERSONAL AGENDA, it bothers anyone......Tough. You know we have kept data on the tranmission of this since 2002, there is no question where the BULK of it originated from and what line

Sob Stories? there is another one it would be nice for you to explain? I guess not liking to see people have to watch their baby dragons die, be sick or the dragons they love be positive and ruin their plans and hopes, to you is a sob story?

All these other "Facts" in our post, which you attribute to me, but was not anything I said, I will address in another post, this is getting pathetically long as it is, but sadly this seems to be the route any discussion seems to take on. We have been trying to post about adeno and get people to test and not sell infected dragons since 2002.. each time this happens and everyone gives up.. so another cycle of new people that want to breed come along and it is business as usual as long as the sells flow, and then they find those dragons they so carefully picked out are producing sickly, non thriving babies or positive for adeno ones. Many times the new breeders never knew they had a problem, never even knew there was a RISK of a problem.... I do not want to see that repeated again.

Originally Posted by pscaulkins

Hi,
This is my first post here. I have been following this discussion. I have two sub adult beardies that I tested and both were positive from two different breeders. The reason I am posting is the reaction from one breeder. I asked him to test his breeders when my girl wasn’t thriving. He told me to test so I did and then he demanded to see the results. Well, both were positive. This breeder should have tested when I suspected it. He finally tested a few months later. I feel had he listened and read all the posts he should have tested and it could have saved someone a lot of heart ache. If breeders sell dragons for money, they need to held accountable just like businesses. It’s one thing to sell an adeno positive dragon and not know it but if a buyer says hey my baby is positive than the breeder has the responsibility of testing or the liability falls on them. The attitude from this breeder was really disgusting to me. Had he tested and came to me, I would have tested and that be the end of it. I would have understood.

I think a website or forum that has the symptoms that people can go to that suspect adeno would be a great asset to the beardie communities. I know I would volunteer my experiences and we could all gain knowledge. I think the symptoms are far more widespread than what is published since there is no money in research.

I agree with ravin7678, I think the friends of this breeder is biased. I kept quiet about my problems with Magick’s breeder for the reasons your post on the website got. So sad. My heart went out to you.

I have two wonderful beardies and when they start suffering I will do the right thing by them. I have also decided that I cannot bring another dragon into my home after these two go because I do not know if our whole house is contaminated. This is just so sad for us.

I can’t thank Wendy and all the other breeders for coming forward with this information enough.

Sandy,
First off, I can not express how sorry I am that this has happened to you. I deeply appreciate your heartfelt post.
I completely agree that at this point, the responsibility has to lie with the breeders. We have the ability to help control this virus pretty easily right now, simply by testing our colonies before we breed and being open and honest about the results. The only thing that makes sense to me is that people should not be breeding Dragons if they are known to be positive, and at this point, it makes no sense to me for people to be breeding and selling without testing. Yes, it costs money to test, but even at $90 a test, its a small price to pay for peace of mind.
While I, like a lot of the "new" people in this market don't understand all the finger pointing or history, we don't have to. The only thing we need to understand is how to protect our dragons.
Personally, I think that all the finger pointing at this point is useless. I'm not sure it matters where it originally came from, but I do think that if there is a virus that is threatening the Beardie population, we as breeders have a responsibility to act to reduce the threat the same way large snake breeders had a responsibility to act years ago when IBD started spreading through that community. The refusal of many breeders to act quickly to help to control that disease has had an enormous influence on that market, as I'm sure many people on this forum can attest too.

Personally, I think that all the finger pointing at this point is useless. I'm not sure it matters where it originally came from, but I do think that if there is a virus that is threatening the Beardie population, we as breeders have a responsibility to act to reduce the threat the same way large snake breeders had a responsibility to act years ago when IBD started spreading through that community. The refusal of many breeders to act quickly to help to control that disease has had an enormous influence on that market, as I'm sure many people on this forum can attest too.

I totally agree with you. Let's just learn what we can to stop this horrible virus. We love our babies (not so much babies anymore) and am just learning all we can so we can help them. It's not the dragons fault. Thankfully, I had no plans on breeding. But I do have concerns regarding this virus. There doesn't seem to be much on it.

People are getting defensive, why? The public needs to be educated on it and it needs to be stopped. That is more important than where it began.

Cheri,
once again, Paul had his own line of trans. Those dragons did not thrive very well. Paul may have described his own as being sickly and dying, and I can contest that being I had two of his hets. Kevin wasn't working for sandfire during the time when paul was their represenitave. Paul dissappeared owing a lot of money to the company after those KS posts in 2003. I wouldn't take any information as gold from a guy that conducts business that way. What you are doing is placing adeno where it suits your opinion. Saying that people dump their collections because of adeno, and transluscents must have adeno in the beginning because they didn't thrive very well. Do you realize how unprofessional it is to make statements like that without any proof? Remember your conversation with brandon from DBN? That poor guy had to come out and explain himself of why he got out of dragons and how he didn't do it because of adeno. Remember the whole coccidia ordeal a few years back? Now it's okay for dragons to have coccidia. Maybe you can remember the rise in yellow fungus shortly afterward due to people treating their dragons with albon. Are you really about the dragons, or is it a personal quest to prove yourself, and make youself feel as though you have control over everyone. I'm starting to see a pattern. Tell me cheri, how many people tested positive for coronavirus along with adeno?
Josh

Paula,

I am sorry that you having to deal with more potential problems, at least this answers for you maybe some of the reasons that your dragons kept having problems. There are many innocent victim owners and also the dragons too out there. Hopefully with improved husbandry and keeping stress and other parasites at bay, along with the use of immune builders these dragons have still have full rich lives.

A lot of the newer breeders really did not have any idea they could have potential problems and are shocked when test come back positive and there are some that have dragons that appear healthy and thriving, but are positive. I will keep fingers crossed that yours can get on a better health footing and be as normal as possible and have an average life span, there are some that are doing that and doing it well

Originally Posted by pscaulkins

Hi,
This is my first post here. I have been following this discussion. I have two sub adult beardies that I tested and both were positive from two different breeders. The reason I am posting is the reaction from one breeder. I asked him to test his breeders when my girl wasn’t thriving. He told me to test so I did and then he demanded to see the results. Well, both were positive. This breeder should have tested when I suspected it. He finally tested a few months later. I feel had he listened and read all the posts he should have tested and it could have saved someone a lot of heart ache. If breeders sell dragons for money, they need to held accountable just like businesses. It’s one thing to sell an adeno positive dragon and not know it but if a buyer says hey my baby is positive than the breeder has the responsibility of testing or the liability falls on them. The attitude from this breeder was really disgusting to me. Had he tested and came to me, I would have tested and that be the end of it. I would have understood.

I think a website or forum that has the symptoms that people can go to that suspect adeno would be a great asset to the beardie communities. I know I would volunteer my experiences and we could all gain knowledge. I think the symptoms are far more widespread than what is published since there is no money in research.

I agree with ravin7678, I think the friends of this breeder is biased. I kept quiet about my problems with Magick’s breeder for the reasons your post on the website got. So sad. My heart went out to you.

I have two wonderful beardies and when they start suffering I will do the right thing by them. I have also decided that I cannot bring another dragon into my home after these two go because I do not know if our whole house is contaminated. This is just so sad for us.

I can’t thank Wendy and all the other breeders for coming forward with this information enough.

This is the third time today that I've tried replying to your post. Hopefully, my computer won't lock up this time.

I, too, am so sorry you're dealing with this. I know how I felt when I heard and saw those test results, and it's not a good feeling. But please know that your dragons will be able to live long, loved lives...despite those results.

I do know there is a lot of information on Cheri's website about the virus. But you are exactly correct. If we all worked together and tried to help each other find our own answers, rather than bickering about the accuracy of the testing and the limited research, we may be able to move forward and stop this virus from spreading any further.

You are also absolutely correct in that it is the responsibility of the breeder to test, prior to breeding or selling. However, whether the breeder claims they have tested or not, buyers need to take the initiative and test themselves, rather than trusting someone else's word.

Paula,

I am sorry that you having to deal with more potential problems, at least this answers for you maybe some of the reasons that your dragons kept having problems. There are many innocent victim owners and also the dragons too out there. Hopefully with improved husbandry and keeping stress and other parasites at bay, along with the use of immune builders these dragons have still have full rich lives.

A lot of the newer breeders really did not have any idea they could have potential problems and are shocked when test come back positive and there are some that have dragons that appear healthy and thriving, but are positive. I will keep fingers crossed that yours can get on a better health footing and be as normal as possible and have an average life span, there are some that are doing that and doing it well

Cheri,
First off my name is Sandy. Could you explain better husbandry?? I follow what is recommended to the tee. My problems started when we received Magick. My vet even said so. I would love to improve my husbandry. How? They both have good Mega Ray EB lights. Both are on either shelf lining or pads that get tossed daily. No poo in tanks. Fed healthy feeders that are dusted with Rep Cal CA without phos. or D. Gets salads daily. They have a 12 on 12 off lights. Sleep in bins so I can clean their homes. Are never stressed unless they are not feeling good. Daily bathes. I personally spent tons of time rehabbing Magick and if I remember correctly you thought her tail was infected which it was not. I did nothing differently to get Magick back on track. She was shipped with mbd and her tail was freshly cut. I dipped it in betadine for weeks per the vet. He took a picture of it because he could not believe it when he seen it. If when you read this and something in my husbandry is off please inform me. I have always respected your judgements but this time I think you are off the mark. Oh, I wash their veg in vineager water and rinse like crazy to kill any bacteria. I don't feed them silkies as that was the feeder Magick ate when she got sick and the feeder Semi ate when he stopped eating. No more, I am not going to justify my beardies came to me sick or my husbandry. I take my beardies in for fecals and appointments and have spent thousands in vet bills.

For the record, I didn't take Cheri's post to mean she was questioning your husbandry in particular; I took it as a general, overall statement that with improved husbandry (across the board) adeno positive dragons can and do live healthy lives.

I forgot to mention that the Virolyte my vet gave me to try as an immune booster and anti viral has a lot of bad side effects. The worst being it does not dissolve in water and comes in pill form. It was really hard to administer but when I did get it down them it took their appetites away. I couldn't have that.