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Board of Inquiry® This forum is provided exclusively for the discussion of specific persons or businesses in the herp industry. YOUR FULL NAME is required for each message you post.

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Old 03-15-2012, 03:42 PM   #471
StuTennyson
Quote:
Originally Posted by TONY D View Post
Stu, it’s been said by impartial authority that if these animals did develop ZD there is no way of knowing when, where or how they got it, or who is responsible. Did they come in with it, don’t know. Did they contract it at your place, don’t know. Was it triggered by shipping stress don’t know. What we do know is that there are always TWO parties involved BUT the seller is always going to have to eat it ALL or deal with the kind of consequences we see here. Yes the BIO and other public forums have made it so we can force a “buyer wins / seller looses” scenario that is pretty much unprecedented in the trade of live animals but this being the reality doesn’t make it right. Rick noted the unfairness of this in one of his posts and I agree and I think it quite likely that anyone who doesn’t has never found themselves on the short side of this equation. Anyway, given this I’d like to see a little grace on your part. Jerry said he would make it right by month’s end. If he hasn’t paid by a reasonable grace period beyond that, well by all means let it fly, punish him all you want but in the interim, reporting every little hiccup in real time is childish too.
Tony-do you really believe what you are saying here? I've been in this business a long time and if I send somebody an animal they are not happy with the first thing I'm going to offer is a refund. Especially if it occurs withing a week. I'm not going to try figure out who's to blame unless of course it is obvious like they tried to feed it a live rat and it chewed the snakes head off. And what exactly do you call grace? I've been trying for months now to resolve this issue. Have you not read any of my text messages? They reek of grace. What do you consider a reasonable grace period? I've been told several different dates as to when I would receive payment not just end of month. It's obvious you are not even reading these posts and just sticking up for your friend. Why don't you read first and then comment. Like they say, "sometimes its better to be quiet and let others think you're intelligent rather than speak out and remove all doubt".
 
Old 03-15-2012, 04:29 PM   #472
Bobby Douglass
I know everyone's having fun beating up on Jerry and he probably deserves most of it but to me making that first payment was a big step for him. I think he's going to come through. I'd like to see him take care of the paypal fees too but I don't know what agreement if any they had about that. Good luck to both of you.
 
Old 03-15-2012, 04:47 PM   #473
hhmoore
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Douglass View Post
I know everyone's having fun beating up on Jerry and he probably deserves most of it but to me making that first payment was a big step for him.
One of the points people have been making is that it shouldn't have been such a big step for him...it isn't as if Stu posted this thread a day or two after receiving the snakes. Jerry can claim it was simply a matter of him not reacting as quickly as Stu would have have liked; but had he addressed his customer's legitimate complaint at the start, we wouldn't be doing this over a month later.
 
Old 03-15-2012, 05:14 PM   #474
TONY D
Stu I’m not sticking up for Jerry. I think I’ve said that he’s made mistakes handling this matter and I hardly gave him a pass on my last post. That said, I do see both sides here and I maintain the belief that this went public too soon and that remains a contributing factor in the dispute. That isn’t a justification for Jerry’s loosing focus on you as his customer but given the quick storm that ensued I can hardly blame him for going becoming distracted and going into defensive mode either.

Yes you are “currently” out 3100 but unless I’m really really wrong about Jerry he’s not “stupid” enough to back away from giving you the refund he promised with all this public attention. Given that it just seems to me that the play by play reporting is about punishing Jerry not getting the money you know you’re going to get. If I were in your position, I’d like to think I would be chill enough to wait 5 or so days past the deadline before posting that payment had not been made. Certainly if I did that nobody could or would rise to the seller’s defense or call my motives into question.

I do have one question about this that hasn’t been brought up. What was your first impression of the animals as you received them? Did you think wow these guys are fat and sassy or was their initial condition a bit of a disappointment? The reason I ask is if your first thought was wow these things are beast then I would also think you’d understand some of Jerry’s hesitation to have to swallow this whole deal.

If you have had to swallow such a deal as well you know that, in the absence of complete information (which the seller NEVER has) you always have this nagging feeling you've been screwed by someone who isn't accepting their measure of responsibility. I once replaced a hypo coastal that died after a week. In the pics sent to me it looked like the animal was left in its shipping container the entire time, died and desiccated before being discovered. This animal didn’t die "a few hours after it was fed and watered"; it had been dead and was pretzel stiff. This happened in the hands of a VERY experienced keeper who gave me every assurance that the animal had been properly cared for. I went ahead and replaced the animal to keep the incident off the boards (and because there was a third party who had zero responsibility for the snake's demise but would otherwise absorb the loss) but I still have this nagging suspicion that that animal died due to neglect. Was I right to replace the animal, from a business perspective to keep it off the board, absolutely. Should I have had to, well, I’ll never know and this is the thing, neither will Jerry. That is why I ask for grace to let this resolve and in the end I would hope a little gratitude that it did.
 
Old 03-15-2012, 05:30 PM   #475
hhmoore
Apparently, I've given out too much karma today....but that post certainly deserves it, Tony
 
Old 03-15-2012, 06:08 PM   #476
Wilomn
Quote:
Originally Posted by TONY D View Post
I went ahead and replaced the animal to keep the incident off the boards (and because there was a third party who had zero responsibility for the snake's demise but would otherwise absorb the loss) but I still have this nagging suspicion that that animal died due to neglect. Was I right to replace the animal, from a business perspective to keep it off the board, absolutely. Should I have had to, well, I’ll never know and this is the thing, neither will Jerry. That is why I ask for grace to let this resolve and in the end I would hope a little gratitude that it did.
Your willingness to sell your honor really has nothing to do with the problem between ol jer and Stu. You wish to stay out of the limelight in spite of what you think is right. That's all well and good, but call it what it is. You thought you were right but didn't want people to think poorly of you so you capitulated and gave in where you didn't really want to or think you should.

ol jer made promises SEVERAL times to pay Stu. ol jer lied several times prior to Stu bringing him here to see if peer pressure, though I'm pretty sure ol jer is peerless unless you're REALLY scraping the bottom of the ol barrel, would get ol jer to do the right thing.

What you do and what you ASSume others would do in a similar situation have nothing to do with each other. You could have as easily been, from the price I've seen perhaps even less, Stu's friend and said much to ol jer that you have said to Stu. What's your price to switch sides?

Anyway, great for ol jer doing the right thing a day late, though I still have a hard time figuring (I've flat out failed actually) why he had to make the paypal payment AFTER his kid was asleep. I can use paypal anytime. 24/7 even. Maybe it's different for New Yorkers, I just don't know. What I DO know is that in the land of lame excuses, that one had three broken legs. Lame, Lame, Lame.

But, I do have confidence in ol jer. Because you see, much like you, he cares a great deal what other people think of him. Not so much whether what he's done is right or not, but what they think of him. You know, like wanting to give him, yet again, the benefit of the doubt, to cut him a little more slack.

Slacks up homey. Let him do what he says when he says it. That's all ANYONE wants. I think.
 
Old 03-15-2012, 06:49 PM   #477
deborahbroadus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilomn View Post
Your willingness to sell your honor really has nothing to do with the problem between ol jer and Stu. You wish to stay out of the limelight in spite of what you think is right. That's all well and good, but call it what it is. You thought you were right but didn't want people to think poorly of you so you capitulated and gave in where you didn't really want to or think you should.

ol jer made promises SEVERAL times to pay Stu. ol jer lied several times prior to Stu bringing him here to see if peer pressure, though I'm pretty sure ol jer is peerless unless you're REALLY scraping the bottom of the ol barrel, would get ol jer to do the right thing.

What you do and what you ASSume others would do in a similar situation have nothing to do with each other. You could have as easily been, from the price I've seen perhaps even less, Stu's friend and said much to ol jer that you have said to Stu. What's your price to switch sides?

Anyway, great for ol jer doing the right thing a day late, though I still have a hard time figuring (I've flat out failed actually) why he had to make the paypal payment AFTER his kid was asleep. I can use paypal anytime. 24/7 even. Maybe it's different for New Yorkers, I just don't know. What I DO know is that in the land of lame excuses, that one had three broken legs. Lame, Lame, Lame.

But, I do have confidence in ol jer. Because you see, much like you, he cares a great deal what other people think of him. Not so much whether what he's done is right or not, but what they think of him. You know, like wanting to give him, yet again, the benefit of the doubt, to cut him a little more slack.

Slacks up homey. Let him do what he says when he says it. That's all ANYONE wants. I think.
 
Old 03-15-2012, 07:46 PM   #478
Christina Vincent
Tony, about swallowing that deal on the hypo you had, if it was an "expirenced keeper" why would you assume neglect? Generallly keepers love their animals...to let one perish due to neglect is harsh. And "dead and pretzel stiff" are you referring to rigor? Rigor sets in a few hours after death and fades back to loose joints after a period of time. Dead stuff doesn't stay stiff. So its likely, I don't know the details of that story you shared, but, the hypo was dead a few hours if when you deducted "pretzel stiff" from inspection of photos the dead was stiff...
As far as people just being graceful....really? Stu has been the most gracious OP I have come accross yet lol and Jerry, well Jerry he brought this all on himself and it seems is tryin to rectify it...Yay

BOI! - kudos/karma (I'm out right now lol) to Rich- Webslave for all the effort he and his staff*? Put into the site everyday
 
Old 03-15-2012, 10:47 PM   #479
TONY D
@ Harald: Thanks, I think

@ Wess: (This space is left intentionally blank.)

@ Cynthia: I don’t assume neglect I suspect it, there is a difference; and I only suspect it because the story I was told did not match the pics I was sent. I think the key you’re missing is desiccated. Yes rigor is a state dead animals pass through rather quickly but this one was past that and desiccated. Perhaps this was a bad example because here the snake went from live and sassy to dead and dried up in 7 days. That means the snake died on something like day 3 maybe 4 at most and therefore regardless of conditions it was kept in (well maybe not rode home in a deli cup sitting on the dash of the car) as a healthy snake, should have survived longer than that. Despite the nagging feeling I still have about how the snake was cared for it was pretty clear that replacement of the animal was something that I would want if the script was flipped and I did so for that actual buyer with no regret. I could have said forget it but nobody would have won. As is, there were fewer than 20 words in three short emails between the buyer and I before I offered an acceptable resolution.

As for the communications between Stu and Jerry, I obviously see them a little differently than you. I admit that I haven’t “poured” over them but my impression, after a single read, was that this was two guys who weren’t banging (communication wise) on all cylinders. Stu didn’t come out and say what he wanted from the get go and Jerry failed to recognize Stu’s angst and to communicate his intentions. Once the antagonists pilled on all bets were off until cooler heads prevailed. Classic human nature stuff and 100% predictable. If you see it differently that is fine but I would hope that we can disagree respectfully.

You also seemed to indicate that I’ve somehow disparaged the BOI? Nothing is further from the truth. I’m actually very grateful that at least one webmaster in our community isn’t also so risk adverse that he too wont allow these discussions to be made. (I’m not sure that came out right but it was intended as a positive) That said, I don’t think everybody who “posts” here has what I would call a qualified opinion. When a seller takes your money and you never hear from them again it’s easy to make a judgment but it’s another matter all together when two guys aren’t EFFECTIVELY communicating and they’re upset and perhaps irrational because $3.1K of hard earned money is involved. People forget that 90% of communication is non verbal and that darn few of us are accomplished enough writers to convey everything we intend in an email. They think they’ve really done something when they pick a post, email or text apart but they usually haven’t. Some are well meaning and seeking clarification but some are just troublemakers. Their existence doesn’t make the BOI a piece of work or worthless but they do make it harder to get to the core of what’s going on and to facilitate a resolution which should be our concern.
 
Old 03-15-2012, 10:54 PM   #480
Bobby Douglass
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhmoore View Post
One of the points people have been making is that it shouldn't have been such a big step for him...it isn't as if Stu posted this thread a day or two after receiving the snakes. Jerry can claim it was simply a matter of him not reacting as quickly as Stu would have have liked; but had he addressed his customer's legitimate complaint at the start, we wouldn't be doing this over a month later.
I don't think people are trying to make that point much anymore. I still think that this thread is probably the reason Jerry will pay Stu back. I'm not denying that Jerry dropped the ball on this but I don't think the childish insults are helping. $3000 is hard for a lot of people to come up with no matter how much they know they owe it.
 

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