Rian at Underground Reptiles BAD GUY

Wanted to share a horrible experience I had purchasing an Egyptian Uromastyx from Underground Reptiles. I ended up paying about $600 for her and she had to be put to sleep. My name is Peter Ingoldsby. Here's the info:

WHAT HAPPENED:

I purchased an egyptian Uromastyx from Underground Reptiles the end of November, 2003. I was told she was in absolutely perfect health and I paid $310 for her to be shipped from Florida to my home in California. When she arrived she seemed to be in decent health but was not "perfect" as they said. She had an abrasion on her mouth and scarring on her back. Within an hour it was apparant that something was wrong with her front left arm as she could not walk on it. I contacted Underground Reptiles about the problem and they informed me she was walking perfectly fine when she left and something must have happened in transit. I was told that "they were animal lovers" and they would work with me to get her in health by splitting veterinary costs. I took her to the veterinarian ($60) and she was given an analgesic. I wrote Underground Reptiles and told them that if it was only a minor injury to not worry about the bill because I probably would have taken her to the vet anyway and the check-up itself was the bulk of the cost. I mentioned that if she did need further treatment I would like compensation. I let her try and acclimate and heal over the thanksgiving holiday but her arm was not getting better, in fact it was becoming increasingly swollen. I wrote Underground Reptiles informing them that I was going to take her in to get x-rays and would like to split veterinary costs as we had discussed over the phone. They did not respond. I took her in to her appointment and took an x-ray ($113) and she was given an oral anti-inflammatory. I again wrote Underground Reptiles to tell them the costs and informed them I could have the receipt faxed to them and or have my veterinarian speak with them if they needed proof of the total cost before refunding me half the amount. No reply. I then called Underground Reptiles and spoke with the owner. He proceeded to yell and get very defensive stating that I had the animal for too long, that he would not split veterinary costs and that I could send her back if I was not satisfied. At this point I was very upset with my purchase but did not feel right sending her back for a few reasons: (1) I had already spent almost $180 in veterinary bills plus would end up paying for $70 in non-refundable shipping and (2) I knew that Pebbles (the egyptian Uromastyx's name) would not receive the veterinary care she needed in their hands. Also, I rightfully felt goated into paying the large veterinary costs under the guise that they were willing to help before being told otherwise. The x-rays did not show any type of fracture but something was obviously wrong. I still had hope that she would come around. I consulted friends and other Uromastyx breeders for information regarding swollen limbs in reptiles and read anything I could on the internet that could be of some use in helping her. The possibilities at this point were most likely either a blood clot or septicemia. After another week of the swelling in her arm not subsiding (it had been 3 weeks at this point) I decided to take her into the veterinarian again in order to do a needle aspiration. The veterinarian found an unusual amount of white blood cells in the sample implying an infection. She was given oral antibiotics as well as pedialyte for hydration. The next morning I found her in horrible shape. She was unable to move her back limbs or tail; they were dried out and petrified. It was a shock that such a huge amount of damage could be done overnight.I rushed her to the vet one last time and was informed there was nothing I could do and had to have her euthanized. Probably cause of death was septicemia which had been worsened by the cold of shipping and ended up blocking the arteries that took blood to her lower half. I called Underground Reptiles to tell them what had happened, that I was very upset after spending nearly $600 on a lizard that was bound to die and wanted a refund at least for the cost of her. Again I was talked to very antagonistically, told that there was no way I was getting a refund and that he "couldn't believe I had killed a healthy lizard."

PICTURES OF PEBBLES:

http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~georgio/rippebbles.htm

FORUM POSTS ABOUT PEBBLES (in chronological order):

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=258339,258339

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=258339,258488

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=258339,258498

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=272608,272608

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=279713,279713

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=283452,283452

ACTUAL EMAILS:

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 10:44:28 -0500
From: <Rian@UndergroundReptiles.com>
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To: <left blank on purpose>
Subject: RE: Message about: Egyptian Uromastyx (Giant Adult Female Captive)(PHOTO)


First of all, how long has she been in captivity?
She is captive born, and 5 years old

Is she showing any signs of brumating for the winter?
No, she is still roaming around and eating normally.

How much does she weigh?
Approx 1.6 lbs

Is she currently housed with any other lizards and if so how does she get
along with them?
No, she has been solitary her whole life (as a pet)

How do you know she's a female?
We guarantee the accuracy of sexed uromastyx. There are no femoral pores,
and she probed female.


I would suggest to call us ASAP to order as this morning alone, I received
about 7 emails about her.

Thanks
Greg
Underground Reptiles
954.428.8005

_______________________

PHONE CONVERSATION INFORMING THEM I WOULD LIKE TO PURCHASE HER

_______________________

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:46:42 -0500
From: Peter Ingoldsby <>
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To: <Rian@UndergroundReptiles.com>
Subject: RE: Message about: Egyptian Uromastyx (Giant Adult Female Captive)(PHOTO)



Greg,

Just wanted to let you know that I got the female aegypticus this morning. Overall I'm very pleased with her. She has a great personality and seems to be settling well. I am a little concerned about an abrasion she has on her mouth however. How and when did this happen? Was she being given any topical antibiotics etc for it?

Thanks,

Peter Ingoldsby

______________________

PHONE CALL: After noticing she could not walk on her arm I called within the hour. I was informed she could walk fine before she was shipped and that she had no abrasion on her face (obviously a lie as the abrasion had already partially scarred over. I also asked about numerous scars on her back and was informed they were just from bites from a cagemate and that they had healed over just fine. (NOTE: This contradicts what they told me earlier that she was housed solitary her whole life, see previous email). I was also told if I was not satisfied with her to just send her back but they could not refund shipping. I decided not to send her back because it would be a loss of $70 for myself and I figured she would be walking on her leg in no time and the other injuries were minor.

______________________

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:39:29 -0500
From: Peter Ingoldsby <>
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To: <Rian@UndergroundReptiles.com>
Subject: RE: Message about: Egyptian Uromastyx (Giant Adult Female Captive)(PHOTO)



Rian,

Just wanted to let you know I took the female aegypticus in for a vet checkup. He said her mouth looks fine and should heal nicely so that is nothing to worry about. For her lame leg he said he could not feel a fracture but it was hard to tell because there was quite a bit of swelling. He gave her an anti-inflammatory injection and said to check back in a few days depending on how she responds. The vet visit was $60.00 altogether but I probably would have brought her in for a check-up myself anyway. So, the added cost of the injection was $12.50. If there is no serious damage and she ends up walking on her leg in the next couple of days don't worry about it. If, however, she does not get better she will need a $60 x-ray, which I would like compensation for. Hopefully it will just be a minor injury and she'll be walking on it in the next day or two.


Peter Ingoldsby


______________________

NOTE: They did not respond to the previous email...

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:40:33 -0500
From: Peter Ingoldsby <>
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To: <Rian@UndergroundReptiles.com>
Subject: RE: Message about: Egyptian Uromastyx (Giant Adult Female Captive)(PHOTO)



Rian or Greg,

Well, the swelling has not gone down on the arm of the female Egyptian Uromastyx you sent me, in fact, it has gotten worse. The arm is now completely swollen and hard to the touch. I scheduled an appointment today to get x-rays and would like to split the veterinary costs with you as we discussed over the phone. I can send you pictures of the arm as well as fax you the invoice for the veterinary visit or have my vet call you if need be. The x-ray will be approximately $60 plus whatever treatment she needs after seeing the x-rays. I hope she gets better soon for all of our sakes. If you have anything else you want me to do send me an email or give me a call (_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _).

Peter Ingoldsby

_____________________

I still got not response from the email above so I called Underground Reptiles on the phone. The owner got defensive, said they said they would split vet bills in the beginning but I had kept her too long at this point and that they would not split veterinary costs. Again, they said I could send her back if I was not satisfied. At this point however sending her back would mean I would lose $250 trying to help this poor animal and have nothing to show for it. I decided to keep her for her own health and because it did not make sense to me (at the time) to lose so much money for no reason.

____________________

Last phone conversation, after Pebbles death. Again the owner was very defensive. The conversation basically went like this:

Me: Rian? Hey it's Peter Ingoldsby, the guy you sold the Egyptian Uromastyx to about 3 weeks ago. Did Greg inform you what happened?

Rian: Just that she died.

Me: Yeah, probable cause of death was septicemia. Most likely she got bacteria in her blood when the other Uromastyx bit her on the back and it ended up swelling up her arm and killing her.

Rian: Look, your not getting any of your money back. I told you you could send her back if you weren't satisfied. She was in perfect health, captive bred. I can't believe you killed an animal like that.

Me (VERY UPSET AT THAT LAST COMMENT): Don't <font color=red>[bleep]</font>ing talk to me like that, I did everything I could to save...

Rian: Bye (hangs up on me)

Peter,

I am sorry to hear your Uromastyx died but I would be a little upset with your Vet. When your Vet saw the leg the first time I can understand them not knowing what it was for sure but the second time they should have known there was an infection in the leg and should have treated with antibiotics and not waited as they did. That is what caused the septicemia. They let the infection get worse and over take the body. By just looking at the pictures I can see that it appears the infection started on one of the toes and traveled up the arm. A qualified Vet should have been able to see that as well specially being in person. They should have run some bloodwork to check the white count earlier on then they did.

Rian offered to refund your money if you returned the animal and that is just what you probably should have done. You can not sit there and say that she would not have received proper Veterinarian care at their facility after she arrived back there because you have no idea of what they would have done.

Please don't get me wrong, I am not trying to justify his actions if he was in fact rude or unprofesional to you on the phone but rather what should have been done when the animal was seen by your Vet in my opinion.

Is Rian's last name Gitman? What is Greg's last name also please?

Peter,

I am sorry you lost her, she was lovely Uro. As far as the sell of her, I looked over their site and I can not see any terms of sales there, but... you did notify them right away and let them know she had injuries and you say they agreed to share vet cost with you to get her healthy. At minimum I think they are obligated for that.

The fact there is a discrepancy in what they told you on the phone (she was always alone) and what they told you later (cagemate bite) makes me think the arm problem with an infection was a bite. Lizards will often swell up several days after a bite from another one and only a long course of anitbiotics will clear it. If it gets into the blood stream, it can and will turn deadly and the animal will go down fast... sometimes within hours, but the injury happened long before.

You told them the same day the arm was injured, you also told them within 10 days it was infected. Returning an animal in that shape would probably have been fatal for her, but IMO, you informed them timely and they should be repsonsible for it.

I would like very much to hear what they have to say on this matter since I live in FLorida also. Have they been notified this thread is here?

Also, I agree with Rob, a qualified Vet would have known right off to look for infection from a bite in a swollen arm on a lizard species, it is a very common thing, but that also does not alter the fact, if it was a bite, it occured prior to her arrival to you.

Rob,

I believe the reason my vet did not suspect septicemia to begin with was because there was no (at least apparent) break in the skin. It is his (maybe wrongful...I don't know) belief that bacteria was introduced into her bloodstream when she was bitten on the back by other uromastyx (which I was informed about later...as is explained in the post) and the bacteria did not have the ability to really take off until she was subjected to the cold temperatures of shipping.

As far as me sending her back the problem was each step she seemed worse but I was more indebted to her. In the beginning I would have lost $70 in shipping sending her back right away, which I definitely would have done if I had known but I figured it was not that bad of an injury. Then, after scheduling a second veterinary appointment BECAUSE I thought we were going to split veterinary costs and they were so kind as to work with me to get her into shape they informed me later that they were not going to and I could ship her back. At this point I would lose $250 in bills and shipping and get nothing in return. I really wish I they had replied about the vet trip before bringing her (you'd think if it was going to be a problem they would...at that point I probably would not have taken her in and sent her back) but when they didn't I just figured they would stick true to their word. (Also, isn't it strange how someone will write you back within half an hour when you are trying to buy something from them but ignore you when you need their help?)

The point is I never should have been put in this situation to begin with. Neither of us should have. I'm not asking them to give me all $600 of the money I spent on her, I just feel they should refund me the cost of her because I was not sent what I bought and even if I had sent her back there was very little chance she would have made it, especially with the added stress of another shipment. In the case proposed they would break out even for her (if they really were going to take her to the vet that's better than where they would have been if she did not end up with me) and I would end up paying $280 for vet bills which I would gladly do (and the reason why I did) to try and save an animals life.

Peter

I am very sorry to hear about your transaction with Underground but I must tell you that it does not surprise me. A little over a year ago I purchased my first snake from Underground Reptiles. I went to that store under the reccomendation of a friend who was already into reptiles. I went into the store with the idea that I wanted one snake which I had seen in pictures, a jungle carpet python with vibrant yellows and deep blacks.
I didnt know anything about snakes at the time as far as typical temperments of certain species, feeding habits, housing etc. When I got to the store I was assisted by a guy who seemed very nice and friendly, he could tell that I was going to buy something, who I later found out was Rian.
I told him that I had seen a picture of a JCP with bright vibrant yellows and that was the snake that I wanted. HE showed me a baby and he allowed me to hold the snake which HE removed from the deli cup and placed in my hands. I held the snake for a bit, asked a few questions regarding coloration as an adult and he explained they would either be white or yellow, maybe something in between.
As I was holding it he kept repeating the phrase"its puppy dog tame". I finally said ok I would take it and I asked how much it would be and he went on with the whole salesman bit. Needless to say after I spent $55 on a 20g tank and close to $220 dollars in accesories which including a UV fixture for a snake I took my first snake home. As I was leaving he gave me his card and said if for any reason I had problems to call him with my concerns and if for some reason I didnt like the animal I had 14 days to return it.
I took him home and I set him up according to the care sheet that Rian gave me and everything seemed fine. Later that evening I attempted to take him out of the cage to hold him and he began to strike at me. I left him alone thinking that he needed to acclimate. The next day I tried again, still struck. I realize that this was a baby but this was my first snake and so I was very afraid.
The next day I called Rian and asked him about the snake and told him very nicely that this snake was very aggressive and that I wasnt prepared to deal with such a snake. I asked him nicely to take it back and he told me, in the same tone Im sure he spoke to you, in that he would not because I held it in his store and that it was "puppy dog tame", I picked the snake. I said that it was his policy on his sheet to take the snake back and again in a nasty tone he said no I wont take it back.
After this happened I knew that I would never do business with this man again and I continued to tell people about it. Since then I have learned so much more about the reptile industry as a business and the hobby as a whole. At the time I knew nothing of this site or of any of the other reptile classifieds/forums. I found out that I got ripped off on the snake and I knew on the accessories. To this day when I see one of his posts on any site I laugh becuase I know that majority of his animals come from a local wholesaler as he is a retail establishment and a select few come from private breeders. It is usually easy to discern which are which. In the future I would urge everyone to not buy from this man. His business practices are to say the least unethical and he usually somewhat misrepresents every animal he sells.
This is the only my experience and so I just wanted to share it with the public.

Michael Tragash

Peter,

At the time you took the animal to the vet the infection was isolated in the leg. Because the infection was not treated with proper antibiotics early on it more than likely turned to septicemia and caused the demise of the animal. Also the infection in the leg does not have to come from a visible laceration. Sometimes pulled nails can get infected on the inside which is not visible on the outside until it starts showing the swelling. When this happens and is treated immediately with antibiotics the infection goes away in a matter of a few days. By looking at the pictures it looks to me that the infection started from the outer toe on the foot. It very well could have been from a bite, a pulled nail, a twisted toe, etc.

Also Michael,

I can understand that you would have been scared of the animal had you had no experience with snakes prior to that but you had to realize that you just took the animal home, The animal was still settling in and all animals get stressed in those situations and the snake was probably feeling very vulnerable and more scared than you were and should have calmed down. In all honesty you did handle the snake in the store and agree to purchase it after that. They were not responsible for the snake becoming stressed or scared in your care but I personally would have taken the animal back to keep the customer happy.

Peter,

I have emailed this company, both Rian and Gregg and asked them to come here and give their side of the story. It always is better for both sides to be able to tell their side and points of view. I would also like to hear about them responding or not and way.

This is sad that not only was the Uro lost, but had the communications been better with the seller, they most likely could have spotted this was a bite reaction much earlier than the vet treated, a few days of antibiotics to solve the problem.

I do not think it was the old bites on the back, you can see the fresh broken scales on the wrist (sorry Rob, I do not see what you are saying about a finger). Blood poisoning does not always travel up from the location and with how swollen it is later on you can see the point of initial injury

In doing rescues we have seen this so many times, and the broken scales like that are a sure indicator what happened. Antibiotics usually take care of it in a few days, if it is treated within a reasonable time. I also like Rob fault the Vet there.

I can not fault the buyer here, he made two trips to the Vet within the first 9 days and this was over Thanksgiving weekend and he made two phone calls and three emails during that time to the seller... of which none of the emails was returned it appears......... really BAD customer service in my book, had they returned EVEN one of those emails and looked at the pictures, they would have been able to direct this "customer" in adequate care to be able to help this Uro and it would have probably survived.

Follow up from the sale is everything....... EVERYTHING, and unless they show evidence they responded and tried to help, they fell down BAD on that, to this buyer and to an animal they had a responsibility too.

They abandon both when they could have made a BIG difference in the outcome.

From what is presented here so far, this breaks down
Seller
1. Sold an animal with bites= Poor Business
2. Offered to share Vet cost then reneged = Poor Business
3. Did not return 3 emails from a new buyer with a serious problem in 9 days = VERY poor business
4. Accused the buyer of killing the animal they sent with bite marks = inexcusable!

Buyer
1. Reported in email and phone call the first day a problem = Responsible buyer
2. Took to Vet immediately = Responsible Buyer
3. Kept the seller informed of condition and actions - Responsible buyer
4. Returned to Vet = Responsible Buyer

Vet
1. Treated the symptom, slight inflammation but said to return if not better. Normal considering what all the other test could cost to rule out infection/breaks = responsible Vet
2. Second Visit=IMO, he should have realized this was an infection at that point = contributed to the death

I don't think the buyer here had anything he failed to due, but trust his vet and the seller to help, which they both let him and the animal down, the one by their choice and poor business, the other probably by inexperience.

Peter states they told him he could return the animal, but I can certainly see him thinking it may have been a slight injury from shipping since they mislead him about the animal being alone and that's where both him and the Vet missed a bite. I would have done the same thing in his position as I think most people would. He bought the animal because he wanted it and I also do not have the heart to ship a sick animal back..... and think it poor of the seller to advise a cross country shipping of an ill animals

Rob,

I think the complaint that Michael and I mostly have about Rian is something that is hard to convey with typed words. It's the feeling you get when you talk to him. As if he does not care how you feel, does not care about the animal, just wants to be as short and abrupt as possible, to stop all conversation because he already has what he wants: your money. If he questioned the way I was taking care of Pebbles and really wanted to take her to the vet and get her in better shape personally why not ask me to ship her back so he could get her back on her feet and give me a refund in a manner that suggested he was doing it for the good of the animal? I personally know Doug Dix did this exact thing with a sick uromastyx another amatuer hobbyest bought not too long ago. If he had come to me with honest concern about both the uromastyx and my satisfaction as a customer I would have happily listened to his requests and paid the shipping to send her back. Instead, he took everything I said as a threat. When I called and said Pebbles had died he never asked what happened, he never expressed any sympathy for the tragic loss of an animal, never even took the time to listen. I started to explain what my vet and I thought had happened and he immediately cut me off, told me I was not getting any money, said his actions and the animals health were perfect and that he was disgusted that I had killed a perfectly healthy animal...end of story. That pain and disgust that I felt when I listened to him say those words--after doing everything I could, devoting my time, spending all my money, crying for her in the vets office, holding her in my arms as she took her last breaths--is something I would not want anyone else to experience and the reason why I condemn them as a company.

Peter