AV negative Breeders

OK, did a little reading, and found that, yes, liver biopsies CAN be done on live dragons, but here's why they are not used:

(This is entirely my subjective interpretation)

Liver biopsy involves inserting a special needle into the animal's liver, and a "plug" of liver tissue is removed. This procedure is not without risk to to life of the animal.

It STILL produces a lot of false negatives, making it a much riskier, but not more effective test.

Come on RAWDOG..... TELL ME HOW I AM BEING BIASED. If you are going to accuse me of something then back it up.

Who said you were being biased?

You wrote:
And a liver biopsy is performed on dead animals as well in most cases. There are some live animals that a liver biopsy can be performed, but with

most small animals the procedure itself will most likely kill them because they have to operate and remove a section of the liver to test.

The tests she is referring to are for dead animals. The necropsy and the liver biopsy. These tests do exist, but are for dead animals.

And as I said earlier, IN THIS THREAD, yes it can. But on MOST small animals the procedure itself will kill the animal because they have to operate and remove a section of the liver.

I provided the references and definitions to what I am already aware of:

bi·op·sy (bps)
n. pl. bi·op·sies
1. The removal and examination of a sample of tissue from a living body for diagnostic purposes.
2. A sample so obtained.
tr.v. bi·op·sied, bi·op·sy·ing, bi·op·sies
To remove (tissue) from a living body for diagnostic purposes.

TheFreeDictionary

biopsy
One entry found for biopsy.
Main Entry: bi·op·sy
Pronunciation: 'bI-"äp-sE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -sies
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary 2bi- + -opsy (as in autopsy)
: the removal and examination of tissue, cells, or fluids from the living body

WebstersMerriam

Percutaneous ultrasound-guided liver biopsies were conducted in 15 snakes using 18-gauge automatic biopsy devices. The liver samples collected ranged in size from 1.16 ± 0.40 mm to 8.3 ± 0.55 mm. Upon histologic examination, all biopsy samples were of diagnostic quality. Anesthesia with complete immobilization of the snake was necessary to allow proper selection of the target site and limit complications associated with biopsy collection. Percutaneous ultrasound-guided liver biopsy is a rapid, minimally invasive method for collecting liver tissue in snakes.

1Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Florida. Gainesville, Florida 32610 (Isaza, Ackerman), and the Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Florida. Gainesville, Florida 32610 (Schumacher).


You are wrong and I am pointing that out to the readers. The fact that I extract DNA everyday from breast biopsies from patients in clinical trials makes me pretty well qualified to answer this question. I refuse to get involved in the drama but I will be a resource for scientific information.

Tammy,

A liver bio can be done on a live animal, it use to be the ONLY way to determine if a bearded dragon had an adenovirus that was affecting it so I would think that was also detecting one that was having a negative affect on the animal, not a benign in case there is more than one strain. No other testing tells you if the dragon has actually got a type that may be affecting it and also that bio will look at other possibilities that may be making arn animal sick. That is also usually done with a blood draw also, this is in all vet medical books and was the common way to detect adeno PRIOR to PRC or EM which is fairyly recernt, within the last few years.

Again, I can not imagine that DR Stacey told you there was no other way but PRC and EM, which now it seems can not detect strains that may cause illness..... if there is more than one. My understanding is that needs to be researched and had not been done yet, so no one can answer it.

When I first started learning about adenovirus, this on a live and a necropsy on a dead animal was the only way PRC and EM came much later and any lab could do this. If further studies were needed, they sent it out to a contacted lab
__________________
There are some people who will continue to deny there is a problem even up to the point that their coffin lid is nailed shut. Soundproof coffins will be needed for these poor souls.
Elliott Jacobson



Jim.

Wrong about what? What tests CheriS was referring to? GO ASK HER WHAT SHE WAS REFERRING TO IF YOU DONT BELIEVE ME.

About liver biopsies in live small animals.... MY VET PERSONALLY TOLD ME THAT IN MANY SMALL ANIMALS THE PROCEDURE CAN BE FATAL. ANIMALS AND PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT THINGS.

And testing the liver of a dead animal may not be called a liver biopsy, if I am wrong about that then excuse me. But I dont know every medical term in the book.

Anyway I am done here. Have at it since all you people want to do is split hairs and argue. That is not what I came her for.

Hey dawg, do you know the difference between a snake and a lizard? You know, the legs, ears, eyelids, that kind of stuff? There is also, particularly with smaller lizards like beardies, the fact that it is MUCH more difficult to put a lizard under than a snake.

Did you have weights for the SNAKES you use in your defense?

Let's at least compare apples to apples here.

You're so friggin smart you have to pull a doody like that to make your point?

You and that dumbass jimd belong together, in the ignore pile.

PILE being the key word there since you probably missed the humor.

Shrap,

So she is suggesting liver biopsy and necropsy as the 2 more accurate tests?

My lizards are alive and I do not want the biopsy, I can't comprehend that this would be mentioned for the live animals....

Wilomn.
If I was child like yourself I might get upset about your name calling.
If you have nothing to add to this post, start something in the BOI so we can act like children.
Thanks.
Jim.

Originally Posted by draggintails

Shrap,

So she is suggesting liver biopsy and necropsy as the 2 more accurate tests?

My lizards are alive and I do not want the biopsy, I can't comprehend that this would be mentioned for the live animals....

From KS, by Daniel S. Wentz, DVM

"The virus has been found in all types of tissue but is consistently found only in the liver and the small intestine. The problem with these tissues is that they are not always positive in affected animals. An ante mortem liver biopsy can be collected safely by an experienced reptile veterinarian. However, negative liver biopsies can occur in affected animals. Post mortem, liver and small intestine samples should be collected at a minimum, but all other tissues should also be taken."

This publication is not dated, however and could very possibly be outdated info, before the PCR was economically feasible, or even available.

Here's a link:

http://www.reptilerooms.com/Sections...47-page-1.html

Nowhere does it mention the PCR, which leads me to believe it is old.