One year anniversary of the closing of the Board Of Inquiry

Originally Posted by NIGRO51

I sure do miss the chatter

It did have it's purpose, but honestly, in many threads, the wheat often got lost in all the chaff there. It did help with the peer pressure force behind the BOI, but towards the end, even that seemed to be dying on the vine.

Hello
I just wanted to inform that I was just recently involved with a registered user and it was extremely fraudulent. I posted a want add for **** **** **** and the only response I got was this guy. At first getting in touch was easy but then it got harder and harder. he said he'd shot me pics and additional info via emial, never did. Also never asked about a permit as well. SCAM SCAM SCAM!!!!!!!!

It's ****. the registered name is **** ****, location is **** ****, join date is ****. Furthermore the "owner" of the "establishment" is **** ****, phone # is ***-***-****, and email is ****@****.com

I just simply wanted to make this known so no one has to got through what I just did -FRAUD, FRAUD, FRAUD!!!!!!!!!!!

So here is an email I just received, and indicative of a problem that opening up any sort of separate forum as suggested recently, might produce for the staff here. Perhaps even such a comment made in a classified thread would be an issue too, as in my opinion, there is just no meat on that plate. And yet SOMEONE would be labeled publicly as engaging in fraud. Which based on the lack of evidence shown in that quoted post, would very likely be libel. Quite probably, the original author of this theoretical classified ad would then be coming to us demanding that WE do something about this person harassing him or her.

Someone refusing to converse with you or comply with your requests is NOT fraud. You wasting your time conversing with someone else is NOT fraud. So then we have a possibly legitimate user now pissed off about his or her reputation being tainted with a discussion that really had no legitimate reason to be there.

These are the things that I need to consider as to whether I even want staff on this site (including me) to have to deal with day in and day out. And quite honestly, unless I get a whole lot more interest in this thread from the membership at large, I will just have to assume that this really isn't that big of a problem at all that needs to be dealt with.

And while I am thinking of it, any member who registers on this site using false information (personal name and/or location) in their profile is subject to either being banned permanently, or having their account deleted from the site. Scammers will very often do that to try to obscure their true identity, so this is as of now, the only tool at our disposal for ejecting scammers. That is a black and white rule that is enforceable.

So if you are going to file a complaint against someone who you believe is a scammer, please do due diligence and try to determine if the information they used when registering is false. THEN we can do something about it. Your suspicions are not enough. Someone engaging in business in a manner that neither you nor I like, is not something we can act on. We are not judges, private investigators, nor a jury. I am sorry, but if someone takes your money and runs, that in itself is not something I can act on, much less have any desire to get into the middle of. There is way too much "he said, she said" in incidents of that nature. Nowhere near being black and white, and easily actionable.

So if you are contacted by a member who provides identifying info to you that does not match their profile, please bring that to our attention. I don't like scammers any better than anyone else does, but my hands are tied unless specific criteria is met to officially do something about them. You all need to give us good solid proof to be able to deal with such people.

Originally Posted by WebSlave

And while I am thinking of it, any member who registers on this site using false information (personal name and/or location) in their profile is subject to either being banned permanently, or having their account deleted from the site. Scammers will very often do that to try to obscure their true identity, so this is as of now, the only tool at our disposal for ejecting scammers. That is a black and white rule that is enforceable.

So if you are going to file a complaint against someone who you believe is a scammer, please do due diligence and try to determine if the information they used when registering is false. THEN we can do something about it. Your suspicions are not enough. Someone engaging in business in a manner that neither you nor I like, is not something we can act on. We are not judges, private investigators, nor a jury. I am sorry, but if someone takes your money and runs, that in itself is not something I can act on, much less have any desire to get into the middle of. There is way too much "he said, she said" in incidents of that nature. Nowhere near being black and white, and easily actionable.

So if you are contacted by a member who provides identifying info to you that does not match their profile, please bring that to our attention. I don't like scammers any better than anyone else does, but my hands are tied unless specific criteria is met to officially do something about them. You all need to give us good solid proof to be able to deal with such people.

In my experience scammers do not often use fake names or locations. In fact the times ive been scammed or attempted scammed they were all real people real names some currently posting on this site. This reptile market is just so small that these people can scam and still find someone else to sell to just because they just so happen to live near or have a relationship with an importer and can access things a lil easier than others....Im sure thats the case with any other market like ours. Id like to say just my opinion.....but its not.

Originally Posted by marker1

In my experience scammers do not often use fake names or locations. In fact the times ive been scammed or attempted scammed they were all real people real names some currently posting on this site. This reptile market is just so small that these people can scam and still find someone else to sell to just because they just so happen to live near or have a relationship with an importer and can access things a lil easier than others....Im sure thats the case with any other market like ours. Id like to say just my opinion.....but its not.

That is surprising. Seems we are constantly booting out members here that registered using false information. More often than not, it seems they are people who have previously been booted from here, just trying to get back in again. Fortunately the moderators have a pretty keen eye for such things, so they don't typically stay active in their new disguise for long. But honestly, it is not foolproof. Some are smarter than others.

The BOI was good because it was a group investigation. We got to look at situations from several viewpoints and get to the bottom of things. I would like to think that we even got the people who falsely yelled about frauds and scams to recognize their mistakes and learn from them.

Originally Posted by WebSlave

Interesting idea. Thinking about how to implement something like that, I guess a single post thread forum would be necessary. Simple topic line containing just the name of the person, member, or business of interest, with no embellishments. In the text of the one message allowed, the thread author could ask anyone having info about such person to contact them in private.

Positives:

1. Would eliminate the chatter that took place in BOI threads.
2. All conversations would be private, which would eliminate the lawsuit threat.

Negatives:

1. Not sure how many people would follow the structure under which such a forum would be intended. So when people post something like "AVOID JOE BLOW! HE SCREWED ME OUT OF $500!" we would have to delete it and sure as heck, the person posting that would get pissed about having it deleted. And we would be right back where we are right now.
2. Would not provide any incentive for "bad guys" to go elsewhere to look for victims.

That is just off the top of my head without spending a lot of time thinking about it deeper.

But it is a thought to be considered. Just not sure if it could be implemented.

I overlooked this somehow. It is funny I was literally thinking about it as a possible means to provide some protection without the liability risk to the site. One way to alleviate the potential headache of deleting inappropriate posts could be to make the section mod approved before the posts go live. It would cause a little more direct initial work on the mods part, but not that much more.

If there was another option on the forum to directly search and view seller info I feel it would help. Imagine I’m viewing a post from (insert name). I can go to the seller page and look up the seller by name based off the ad. On this page I imagine past sales and ratings from people who have dealt with the person and have sale proof. I believe it’s both on part of the seller and receiver to document shipping and arrivals and comments related to scams must be processed within a year. Individual animal photos I feel are almost a must have and if a retailer can’t provide them I will not do business I know it’s stupid but if your ad wasn’t misleading then there wouldn’t be an issue I’m not saying a new photo everyday but something of a representation of that specific animal is needed to determine health and age and if I even want it. Sellers will have the option to dispute all cases with there documented photos and videos of shipping. I think this can be achieved on this site and would be helpful due to the fact that it would remove mass breeders and pet stores and move towards peoples breeding efforts so animal quality will be upheld in “fear” of public out lash. The internet seems to have some nice censorship so I imagine anything to rude or alarming will be brought to admin attention and be removed or moved into a administration effort to correct. Sent back to sender to be corrected and reposted.


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Well, I am pondering the latest suggestions made, and I am not sure I want to go down the road again of another Board Of Inquiry, even though it might be a "light" version with pre-approved threads or even be limited to a single post which would be a query about the person someone is interested in. In the latest post made it sounds like quite a bit of custom programming would be needed to implement such a plan. Plus it appears that quite a bit of hands-on management would be needed. Honestly, I am not interested in custom programming, nor putting more burden on myself or the moderators for this. A lot of effort was put into keeping the Board of Inquiry running, as well as setting up that Good Guys Certificate program, and where has it gotten me? Sorry, but no. I can recognize a dead end when I see one.

I believe I COULD set it up such that all threads placed in a particular forum as well as the replies could be set up needing pre-approval before becoming public. But I am NOT sure this could be a task taken up by the moderators or if it is something I would need to do personally on my own as admin. I believe it could be a colossal headache, regardless. Surely, every one of the threads or posts rejected would generate a nasty-gram from the person who wrote it, who is now incensed that their post was found wanting, and now demanding an explanation. Thanks, but no thanks.

And quite honestly, admittedly it did gripe me somewhat in the Board of Inquiry days where someone would come here with a problem that began with their transaction that took place somewhere else. Basically dragging this site into their battle that really belonged where that transaction took place. Yes, I realize that many of those other places did not allow a BOI style discussion, but I was getting to be pretty incensed to see people bring their flamewar here, sometimes getting me threatened with a lawsuit as a result. Then after it got resolved, never was the person to be heard from again. Off they go back to that other place where they would continue their buying, selling, and participating elsewhere.

Pardon my french, but screw that. I don't want that sort of thing here any longer.

So with the above in mind, perhaps my first suggested plan might be the appropriate plan to consider as the front runner. Keep any discussions focused directly within a classified ad placed by a particular party and limited to that contained area. I am only interested in situations directly affecting and taking place ON this site. I really don't care to become involved in anyone's issues anywhere else on the net. If someone gets scammed by someone on facebook, or where ever else, deal with it THERE, not here. If that same person is advertising here, then fine, if there is a classified ad involved, discuss it there and ONLY there on this site. If they are not advertising here, than it is just not my problem to have to deal with.

As per one suggestion, if someone wants to inquire about a particular seller, then fine ask there in the ad itself or just ask for a contact from someone with experience via private message. I suggest PM over email because spam blocking has made emails pretty unreliable from this site. And I suggest keeping the conversations internal as much as possible for that reason. If the seller gets their toes feeling kind of toasty because of the scrutiny, and decides that more fertile fields lie elsewhere, then so much the better. Problem solved here.

So in a nutshell, I am not at all enthused about creating a new forum for BOI style postings, even in a limited and tightly controlled sense. It puts a burden on us to pre-filter all posts made, and that therefor puts some responsibility on us for what is allowed to be posted there. That, in itself, could be a legal minefield. I would not ask that of the moderators, and I sure as hell am not going to take that on myself.

Honestly, I don't think anything will be without faults and headaches. But I am looking for a method that will limit that as much as possible so I don't find myself regretting making any change that I might have to rescind in 6 months. If I find that abuse has overweighed any possible benefit the majority of the membership is getting from it, then it will have to go. So honestly, one criteria that I am weighing heavily is the ease of implementation, as well as how easy it would be to roll back from it if things go sour with it.

I am about ready to make a decision and implement what is still seemingly the best plan based on ease of implementation without custom programming, and without beating myself and the moderators to death with an increased workload.

Right now I am manually auditing all new registrations, and am not as forgiving as I used to be with questionable new members. No longer giving the benefit of the doubt.

All who register with a VPN are being kicked out. If they want to come back and post via using a VPN, then I will not be checking that, so that will be OK by default. But they have to register using a non-anonymous server service to become a member here.

In the meantime I will be reading over this thread again in case I missed something that I need to take into further consideration. Bear in mind that nothing will ever be perfect. That is just not possible. And it will require YOUR help too. More on this later.