Damian Macioce Selling TSE Hets -- You Decide

Since this is about hets and responsibility I have a question.

Say you recieved a 100% het animal in a deal to make up for market turndowns. This animal had accompanying paperwork (photo ID, breeders info, etc) and you then sold said animal. I realize you would now take over responsibility for the genetics since you sold it as such. Now, say the buyer in turn sold said animal to another individual.

When does your responsibility regarding the genetics end?

Originally Posted by Casey Hulse

Would it be reasonable for Damian to provide a refund right now, because some of TSE's hets have been proven to be fake? Is it possible that Chris was legit for a time, and then got greedy?
I know I purchased a "het" from someone, and it failed to produce after 2 breedings (1 to a visual) and 16 eggs, but this person has sold real hets as well (david van houten).
What would Damians financial responsibility be? The purchase price? The rats the animal has eaten? Reimbursement for the hrs. of care required? I think in the end, that as long as Damian satisfies his customers 100% that is what is important.

Very well said Casey! It's easy to play monopoly with other people's money and livelihood. Furthermore, if one throws suspicions around on each and every person the chances of outing a "true bad guy" do not increase. Much to the contrary we numb our senses to the point of not being able to recognize a bad guy standing right in front of our noses once he/she finally shows up. After all, they are all potential bad guys.

You don't need to steal possesions to be a bad guy. In fact there's a "new breed" of bad guys running rampant among us. They don't stick to the traditional definition as they don't steal tangible things that can be purchased or sold. They "only" steal intangibles such as dignity, self worth, and they denigrate people at will. They don't limit themselves to the "traditional" bad guys but to anyone that doesn't think as they do.

Their train of thought: "I'm great thus I have "great thoughts"; if this other individual doesn't agree with "my great thoughts" then "he is not great"; in fact he is a scammer in the making; I need to stop him now!

These individuals just do it for the fun of it and for their self-empowerment.

Enough rambling already.

Hey Damien, look at it this way.. All of this free advertising is really good for business... Allot of people who do read this are still buying balls from me... FREE ADVERTISING, it works... Thanks BOI...


Wyatt

Well all I'm saying is according to some I should cover the animals regardless if I produced them or not I didn't originally think that but it seems that some of these holier than thou think so, so I will step up and take care of it. But now its spawned a whole new issue of bullshit like the heavenly father Harald Moore states now that I'm a fugitive from the IRS for not claiming the few animals I have sold who is another ambulance chaser it seems to me. He had nothing to do with that but if he wants I will show you something from his Terms Of Service page. As he states in his TOS "All animals will be outwardly healthy and free of externally parasites" well what if they had an internal parasite in your possesion that had a long incubation period and it didn't manifest itself until a few days after the stress of shipping and being in a new enviorment made it apparent, what would you do then Mr. Moore? Well from the looks of it his TOS says "Since he cannot control conditions after they are out of his care then he will only guarantee it for 48 hours" so if it doesn't manifest itself for lets say 4-5 days the buyer is out of luck. But don't worry it also says he has the last say in the matter.
HHHmmmmm that sounds like the TSE het issue was found out looonnnnggg after 48 hours of the sale and was defiantly out of my control but I'm still man enough to cover it. So please don't don't get another thread started for no reason I'm not trying to get another person against me but you made your mind up before you posted but I do have to say thanks for asking the question if a thread will be started about everyone that has been found out that sold TSE hets........
Harald Moore TOS

Originally Posted by SPJ

Since this is about hets and responsibility I have a question.

Say you recieved a 100% het animal in a deal to make up for market turndowns. This animal had accompanying paperwork (photo ID, breeders info, etc) and you then sold said animal. I realize you would now take over responsibility for the genetics since you sold it as such. Now, say the buyer in turn sold said animal to another individual.

When does your responsibility regarding the genetics end?

It doesn't.

The responsibility of the individual seller only goes as far as addressing the issue with the person they sold the animal directly to, but their responsibility to that person does not end. Their responsibility does not extend any further than their direct buyer though; if someone flipped the animal to a third or fourth customer and it can be reasonabally proven that the genetics were misrepresented, each individual buyer and seller down the chain have an obligation to the individuals they did business with directly.

Genetics are not a muteable trait, they do not change past the point of egg fertalization. Any statements made regarding the genetics of an animal, if truthful, will be truthful for that animal's entire life. Any statements made regarding the genetics of the animal that are inaccurate will be inaccurate for the animal's entire life.

When unintentional misrepresentation occurs, an honest dealer will actively work to correct the situation. They will inform their customer(s) of the error and work with them to find an appropriate solution. Failing to do so with the knowledge that an animal was (or is highly likely to have been) misrepresented is a choice- and in making the choice to stay silent, the dealer is perpetuating fraud and theft.

Originally Posted by dmasio

Well all I'm saying is according to some I should cover the animals regardless if I produced them or not I didn't originally think that but it seems that some of these holier than thou think so, so I will step up and take care of it.

It's good that you'll take care of it.

The continued argument that you shouldn't have to is what's going to keep people looking for more dirt.

I think everyone realizes that you bought and sold the animals in good faith, trusting the dealer you were buying them from to represent them honestly and that, at the time of sale, you had no reason to suspect the animals were anything other than what you sold them as.

However you now know that many of the animals sold by TSE as hets are not hets. That means that you lied to your buyer about the genetics of your animals and you recieved money based on the value of a trait the animals did not have. Just because [/b]you[/b] were mislead by a shady dealer it does not make it acceptable or right for you to take and keep someone else's money that they paid you for an animal that you misrepresented to them at the time of sale. You have a legitimate claim against TSE but that doesn't mean you should screw your buyers the same way you were screwed. They paid you for an animal posessing certain traits, trusting your reputation and you failed to deliver what you promised. You owe them.

Originally Posted by Seamus Haley

When unintentional misrepresentation occurs, an honest dealer will actively work to correct the situation. They will inform their customer(s) of the error and work with them to find an appropriate solution. Failing to do so with the knowledge that an animal was (or is highly likely to have been) misrepresented is a choice- and in making the choice to stay silent, the dealer is perpetuating fraud and theft.

Another excellent post, Seamus.

Damian, Harald also states that he may extend that guarantee period if he is notified of a problem within the 48 hour time frame.....and I have no doubt that if there were a problem with an animal, that was something shown to have been present when it left his posession, he would make it right with the buyer. Harald is kind of crazy (read: ethical) that way.

However, that guarantee has nothing to do with genetics. If an animal is sold as a het, there is no time frame to it...it either is what it was sold as, or it isn't. 48 hours....or 48 weeks, that isn't going to change their genetics.

And actually.....I do believe I would start a thread on another person who had sold TSE hets, and never even made an effort to contact the buyer after finding out that in all likelyhood, they are not hets. Jim didn't label you a "bad guy" in the title, he simply said, "You decide", leaving it up to the reader. It is the actions from there that let the reader make their decision....as I said, I do believe you will try to make this right, but don't understand why we should treat someone who is "just a hobbiest" any differently than someone who calls it a business. Ethics are ethics, in my book.

I think you ARE doing the right thing AS LONG AS you are truly trying to locate who you sold the het(s) to, and do try to make it right.

Attacking Harold for his TOS is way out of line. Many have been scammed by buys as well of sellers in this industry and is the main reason to have a TOS that protect us from those scammers.

Oh btw, DBA is "Doing Business As" also known as a "Fictitious Name". A must have for a sole proprietor and even a corporation that is using another name for whatever reason other than their corporate name.

Well Seamus you obviously havent read the whole thread the animals were not sold to the next person with my knowledge of them being normals so I will make it right and I'm not dogding that. And I dont know that they arent true hets, although I wouldnt hold my breathe that they are until I'm contacted since I cant remember who they went to. So if you want to also start in thats fine as well. But a lie is to knowingly mislead someone which wasnt the case if you would have read the entire thread you would see that. So if thats me being a bad guy then the hell with it I'm a bad guy.......

Originally Posted by dmasio

Well Seamus you obviously havent read the whole thread the animals were not sold to the next person with my knowledge of them being normals so I will make it right and I'm not dogding that. And I dont know that they arent true hets, although I wouldnt hold my breathe that they are until I'm contacted since I cant remember who they went to. So if you want to also start in thats fine as well. But a lie is to knowingly mislead someone which wasnt the case if you would have read the entire thread you would see that. So if thats me being a bad guy then the hell with it I'm a bad guy.......

Damian, Seamus said:

at the time of sale, you had no reason to suspect the animals were anything other than what you sold them as.

He acknowledges that you had no way of knowing, at the time of sale, that they were not hets.

Perhaps you need to slow down (yes, I understand you are upset....) and read the words written yourself, and take a deep breath before responding.