Coldbloods

Maybe the feeder mouse is not worth much, but some lab mouse is a whole nother story. $10,000-$30,000 per mouse.

Originally Posted by kmurphy

This not quite true. A feeder mouse, live or frozen, will be relatively the same price. It's true you get a discount on quantities of frozen mice from a wholesaler but it is a quantity discount and not based on the fact they are frozen. Per shops do not differentiate when you purchase 1 or 2 mice at a time.
I am not a gecko guy but I think Leopard Geckos go for 20-30 bucks??? That's a lot for a feeder. What if you saw frozen baby super-salmon boas sold as feeders, would that raise an eyebrow?

I'm not into geckos either, so I have no idea what prices they are. But, I don't think it's that relevant. Comparing feeder prices at pet shops is not what I'm talking about because those are different markets. Let me use an absurd example to demonstrate what I mean.

If you had 1 million leopard geckos and they were each worth $20, you would still not be able to turn them into $20,000,000 because there's not enough people that you can reach in order to sell them all for $20.

What I'm saying is that there's a limit to how many pets/breeders someone can sell, based on whatever market they are able to reach. If someone is producing more than they are able to sell and they are willing to keep, those "extra" individuals are no longer worth $20 to that person because they know they cannot sell them at that price in that market, so they look for another market where they can sell them.

(This would be the point where I would choose stop breeding them...)

I haven't seen the ad (I do not browse the classifieds on kingsuck.com and no link was provided for the ad) and looking at this guy's website there are no frozen feeders listed. So I don't know if he's offering 1, 12, or 200 geckos. But even at $3 each, there's still the expense of shipping, which would require the effort/expense of packing them up and keeping them frozen during shipping, so I can't imagine this would be a worthwhile endeavor as a seller to make three bucks, and I can't imagine too many people would be buying 1 or 2 frozen feeders at a time over the internet.

What if you saw frozen baby super-salmon boas sold as feeders, would that raise an eyebrow?

In a few years if they've been so overproduced that nobody can find a buyer, it wouldn't surprise me at all. :scatter:

Well, this guy certainly knows how to stir up a metaphorical hornet's nest of ethical questions, doesn't he? Although I've somewhat defended him in the past, I think this latest move is going a bit too far. Seems to me that he's grasping at straws, trying desperately to make a few bucks here and there by offering "products" that others haven't offered (and for good reason). Leopard gecko eggs and now feeder leopard geckos? Perhaps he had a boom crop this year of babies and is trying to sell those as feeders? Maybe, but there are too may ethical questions (such as disease and poor care) that he hasn't addressed.

In any case, this guy can no longer be considered a hobbyist. A hobbyist doesn't kill their geckos in the hope of making a few bucks. A true hobbyist cares about their animals and will go to great lengths to assure the continued health of those animals, even if he or she must refuse to sell (and therefore make money) them. This guy has crossed the line between hobbyist and wholesaler (not saying that all wholesalers are bad, but in this case yes, it's bad). I no longer believe he cares for his animals and instead sees them as a money making commodity. It's a shame, in my opinion.

I can honestly say that I will never purchase anything from this guy, at least not until he addresses the issues that have been raised in this forum to my satisfaction.

Originally Posted by snowgyre

Perhaps he had a boom crop this year of babies and is trying to sell those as feeders? Maybe, but there are too may ethical questions (such as disease and poor care) that he hasn't addressed.

Unfortunately, the likelihood is that this guy is simply freezing animals that drop dead in his care and selling them as feeders to avoid a total loss. Illegal?...no. Unethical as all Hell.....resoundingly yes.

It's amazing what people will stoop to in order to make a buck

I'm curious...does anyone have first hand experience with "Courtland". The pic of him on his website looks to place him in his late teens.

Originally Posted by snowgyre

In any case, this guy can no longer be considered a hobbyist.

Maybe not a reptile hobbyist, but he is certainly showing how far he will venture to keep up with his hobby of money.