William Wohlers?

Originally Posted by nickolasanastasiou

To address this one part only because it can lend perspective when considering the entirety of the situation -

Between wild type, het for one trait, het for the other, or double het for both, it calculates at 56.25% per egg of not showing any visuals (homozygous for one if not both traits involved). Since each egg is independent of the others, it is best if we keep that in mind. Put differently, per egg, there is a greater statistical chance of seeing nothing than seeing something for that individual event.

I have had homozygous x heterozygous give me all heterozygous before and the polar opposite for different traits in different animals over various numbers of eggs. Jackpot sometimes and the Shirley Jackson version at other times.

So please retain your healthy skepticism, but also keep it within the confines of the statistical framework involved for the sake of being as fair as possible to all.

You have to admit that skepticism rises as more experience the same thing from the same seller.

Originally Posted by Guy Castro

You have to admit that skepticism rises as more experience the same thing from the same seller.

Certainly.

I am in no way trying to discount that, mind you, with my posts on this topic. I just try to keep information at a maximum so that everything can be fully taken into an account when each person makes their own decision.

As I have said elsewhere, too, at some point, each person has to make a call and decide to cut losses or continue to invest time and other resources. For me, that number tends to be after three clutches of typical size unless we are dealing with a species that has utterly tiny clutch sizes.

So one clutch makes me suspicious, but not sure. Two without a visual would make me extremely suspicious, cause me to rearrange my backup plans, and cause me to prepare to "call it" soon. Three sizable clutches without even one visual across their combined span? I would be "done" with that animal and I would let people know that it failed to prove out with the details of the three clutches provided. I would say there is a still a chance at that point, but not a chance I would take at that point, and I would sell the animal as a normal with that caveat (being quite disappointed in doing so).

To fill you guys in, I got word from Clay that he talked to Josh and I'll quote the results of that conversation (see below). When I told this news to Will I was extremely disappointed to say the least. I had figured this would be the case but still wanted to have the slight hope that I was wrong and it was a big misunderstanding. Will adamantly says this isn't the truth and that he bought these snakes from Josh and he can't believe Josh would say the things he did but said he'd make it right so I've been waiting for that to happen. He said he was going to get me adult females in Lesser and YB (not even close to worth what I paid but anything is better than nothing) there were other attempts at getting me stuff that fell through but this was the latest attempt that was supposed to be guaranteed. A refund would have been nice (which is what I've done in the past when I've sold genes that didn't pan out for my customers) but honestly I'm losing all hope of getting reimbursement of any kind at this point. I can post all the emails we exchanged if you guys want to see but there's been about three deals that didn't pan out that were supposed to be for reimbursement. Here's the latest:

William Wohlers
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12:38 PM
[Keep this message at the top of your inbox]
To: Dustin B.
wohlerswi@yahoo.com
God da***t Dustin. I think Brad got me. He sent me a yellowbelly that is about 600 grams (was suppose to be 1500) that also has a lump of some sort on its lower jaw, and that 1800 gram "big virgin" lesser ended up being about 1100 gram male lesser. He says he is making it right and is looking around right now for what he can come up with. Ill let you know by tomorrow what he says. God da***it Im so pissed man. I was hoping for some stellar animals to send to you :,(

And the PM I got from Clay about what Josh said about Will:

I know it's been a month, but I just got a call from Josh today and wanted to let you know what he said.
Josh said unequivocally he has never done a breeding loan of any kind with Wohlers. Josh hasn't even produced a ball python in about 6 years.

He did sell Will a freedom breeder rack and a bunch of normal females he had that he didn't need. There was also a young albino that he sold him.
That was the extent of his dealings with him. He never took any of Will's snakes, nor did any other sort of breeding loans with him.

Sorry it took so long to get ahold of him, but he's been out of touch. I had to rely on a friend of mine who owns a pet store out there to relay the message the next time josh came in, which was today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dustinNMpythons
I appreciate it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay Davenport
I'll make a call later today and see if I can get in touch with Josh. I don't have his current phone number. He's not breeding snakes like he was if at all now.

I wish you had emailed one day earlier though. I ran into Josh yesterday around lunch would have mentioned it to him.

I'll see what I can do though.

To update everyone on what happened, I received a female super pastel around 200 grams, pewter around 400 grams, and an iffy pastel around 750 grams recently from Will. All females. It by no means comes even close to the dreamsickles that should have been produced eventually but at least there was some kind of attempt made to reconcile. He told me he was also going to try and get me something nice after breedings this spring/summer so we'll see what happens but like I said at least he's making an effort to fix the situation.

And don't forget about the big nice female pastel. I sent you 4 total.
Will

That is correct I appologize, I also received the breeder pastel female. She was the best of the bunch, thank you.

Just to be clear, Will initially stated very adamantly that he did a breeding loan with Josh, or purchased the female as a double het from Josh (I think he said both at different points), but Josh stated that he has NEVER done business with Will other than selling him a bunch of normals and that he hasn't bred in 6 years. So that means that he intentionally sold you a normal female for $1600.

Even if he sends you a few snakes to make up for it I'd still be furious. He blatantly LIED about the genetics and went through a ridiculous amount of denying and name-calling only to be flat out proven as a liar and scammer. I don't know how you can give him any sort of credit after all of this.

What would be most aggravating to me is how he told you how stupid you are and how you don't understand genetics when he was straight up lying the entire time. Did anyone bother to calculate the probability of 9 eggs from a visual to a het with absolutely no visual babies? It's less than 0.2%. The probably of getting at least one visual is over 99.6%. To me there would be very little doubt that you got ripped off, but now there's no question. I can't believe you're giving him any amount of space to seem like a decent person when he's clearly an utter piece of trash.

Sorry, I just realized that I cut out the probability of getting ALL visuals. So the probability to get 1 or more visuals out of 9 eggs would be just over 99.8%.

If we were talking a 4-5 egg clutch I'd still be very suspicious (6% chance of no visuals with 4 eggs, 3% chance with 5), but by the time you get up to 9 eggs? If that's your luck then I wouldn't leave the house, chances are a plane is going to fall out of the sky and kill you.

Don't get me wrong I'm still very unhappy overall with how everything went down, I could have bought most of the same snakes I just got, 6 months ago for probably $400 and they'd be the size they are now or probably bigger but at the end of the day I really thought I was just going to be out the money with nothing to show for it so now that he's making an effort to fix the situation I will come on here and keep updating. I am disappointed that he didn't offer me anything of the caliber of female that I originally thought I had paid for and he said something along the lines of he couldn't offer from his personal collection but if I made a mistake like that I would be willing to provide an equal value snake or money back to my customer.