Adenovirus Questions

I got this from a friend of mine in Australia. Make of it what you will, but just seems like beardies are not the only ones affected. Auckland Zoological Park is in New Zealand, so we are not alone in this.


Adenovirus is a viral disease that has just recently appeared in bearded dragons. The first case of Adenovirus being recorded was in 1990 in a female Amphibolurus barbatus at the Auckland Zoological park. The second was in 1994 in a Rankins Dragon (Pogona Henrylawsoni) at a private breeder in Illinois, USA and the third was in 1996 in a Pogona Vitticeps also in the USA. Since then there has been increasing reports of the virus.
Adenovirus in bearded dragons is poorly understood, mainly due to the lack of funding available to research the disease. Bearded dragons that have been diagnosed with the disease have had a history of failing to thrive, sometimes showing poor appetite, and exhibiting diarrhea. Some dragons with the disease eventually recover or appear to recover. The young, especially those 4 – 12 weeks of age, appear to be affected more than older specimens.
History and physical exams are essential in identifying potentially affected dragons. All other ailments that have similar symptoms such as pinworms and coccidiosis should be ruled out. A liver biopsy is a useful diagnostic test by an experienced reptile veterinarian, and while the technology exists to produce a serologic test (a simple blood test), it is up to the reptile owner to get their lizard tested.


For the full article, which pretty much reads as a care sheet:
http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiv...importing.html

Not sure if it helps anyone or is really anything new, but just wanted to share. I hope that technology they say exists comes about soon to be a method for people like me who are stuck with a dragon who likes to poo in peace.

Originally Posted by draggintails

I don't know Alex, I didn't have you to talk to when this was going on...I was a mess. Tammy

Its just too bad that you had to go through that Tammy......I've read through many many many posts these last couple of days and I'm still shaking my head at some of the comments pertaining to euthanization / culling for something that no one is absolute about.

Makes a person wonder where/who/why/how/when some of these "facts" pertaining to the adenovirus were derived from. Suggesting culling / euthanization for a known proven threat is one thing.....but I've yet to personally see anything on the adenovirus that could even remotely make such a claim.

I guess some people just get so engrossed in fighting for something they believe in that they fail to realize that there are 2 sides to every story...pros and cons if you well......just seems to me that the pros seem to outweigh the cons as far as the adenovirus is concerned. Especially if a infected animal can live out its life healthy, productive and thrive.

Anyways...I'm not trying to down play the adenovirus...but then again, I dont believe its fair for some of the more "educated" people to up play it either. Especially not during a time when there is pretty much nothing concrete to embellish in.

Hi Alex, hopefully I will be allowed to answer some of these without being jumped on by the mob, but I will not hold my breathe on that one

Please forgive me if this has already been discussed...but a few questions come to mind after reading this and a few other thread on the same subject...

It seems as if no one has tested negative for the virus, and the people that claim to have tested negative are either unwilling to provide info in reference to their negative results or unwilling to provide info as to where their negative results were obtained from, irregardless the mass majority of people that have tested would appear to have gotten positive results, so the assumption most if not all of the dragons here in the USA are infected is a valid assumption. I would think that if 100 animals were tested and 95% of them came back positive.....its safe to say those results can be used to generalize the entire population

I do not agree with this sumation, I understand where you come up with it from though and it would appear that way, but there are many other dots to connect and factor in. There are many dragons that have tested negative, one of the people on here that is asking others for their negative results had at least a dozen or more test negative that she told me about from her original colony and it was only when buying dragons recently the past year from some of the more popular lines/breeders (who MOST those dragons or their parents orginate from only a few same breeders) that she had the majority of the NEW dragons that tested positive. IMO, this virus got out strongly in the south first and then some New England States next from the southren breeder so in Florida there are going to be a higher amount of positive from people seeking testing or necropsy that already have reason to suspect that they may have this or have been exposed to it due to the lines they purchased from the last few years. A multitude of private breeders that are not online, have never bought from the high morphs, still seem to be having necropsy reports that do not mention any trace of adeno. Please do not for get the necropsy reports, that are much more accurate that any testing.

At this point in time, its probably just safer to say that all dragons in the USA have the virus then not.

Again, I do not agree with this, there are many breeders that have never bought dragons from these lines that is has been know by other breeders to have problems at least since 2002 that I know of. And that is not just testing postive for viral particles, that is also a necropsy done confirming that adneo was the cause of death or confirming that adeno was not present and MANY dragons that have died have pathed clear of adeno. These were not guess, not arugments over PCR or fecal protocal. These are not claims of false positives or negatives or Aunt Sue sneezing over the dragons cage so they test positive(yes they can) For years there was no test in a live animal or later only a liver biopsy, so we had to depend on a necropsy . In many cases there was no adneo in the advance studies on the organs, but in some since 2002 to present, there are findings of adeno and this is listed as the casue of death, with no other virus or bacterial or other cause found. A necropsy and advance histopathology saw the damage done to the animals and taking this from a necropy report I have in front of me it says:

The liver of this bearded dragon, pogona vitticeps, has marked acute multifocal necrosis with numerous interalesional intranuclear inlcusion bodies. The lesions and morphology of the inclusions are very consistent with adenoviral infections, which have been described in several reptilian species, including Bearded Dragons (Vet PAth 1996, 33(3); 343-346) Althoug sometimes adenoviral infections can be present without associated lesions in adults that act as carriers to young reptiles, in this case there is evidence of hepatic necrosis. This was a 6 week old dragon, not an old dragon that had years of time to develop something else to blame the death on. I have more than we have collected with other data over the past 5 years, I thougth at the time it would have a value to others, but I do not think some will allow that to happen.

Lets say they all have it, whats the protocol now?

What all the experts that know anything about this virus has said and do not have a personal agenda for financial gain from it.... Until more is known, do not breed postiive animal. Test or path (it is not real hard or expensive to send in a baby that dies for testing, or to start testing some of the breeders, there are even Universities that do the necropsy for free and only charge under $30 for the advance studies and there are also state labs that will do them too.

A lot of people are talking about euthanization or culling off the young, is this what the protocol is? Is there any set way to handle this?

I have seen very little discussion of putting down animals. If babies are wasting and dying, euthanization is the humane thing to do, seeing a baby dragon that is know to have a fatal infection of this even start to go downhill, let alone pass away from it..... there is nothing humane about it to let them go through that. Breeders that know once they start going downhill, nothing will save them should be allowed to humanely end their lives and not branded for it like has been done to some. Alex have you seen the photo of a baby that has the onset of the illness and less than 24 hours from dying with it? They look dreadful and we know that one they start, nothing saves them. Other people try to convince some that this is benign in some beared dragon, but the fact remains that even a healthy dragon can pass it on to others or a clutch of babies and have them go through this, it is heartbreaking. Dragons that test positive, but are otherwise healthy can still make fine pets, and we not only encourage people to try and find them home or let them remain with them as pet, but I have found many homes for positve dragons for other breeders. There are alot of sources out there that do not want to breed and are glad to take a positive nice dragon, knowing up front that it has tested positive and agreeing to never breed them.

From what I've read and gathered, it doesn't appear that ALL dragons infected are sickly, dieing, lethargic, emaciated animals.....which would lead me personally to believe that they can and will thrive if given the proper care and right conditions.

I do not believe that husbandry is the final factor in the virus spreading or making animals sick. Although poor care can allow the virus to get a foot hold in an animal, I have some necropsy reports here from breeders that had impeccable care of their dragons, went years never having any problems and very few losses, yet lost over 100-400 animals in one season. Some you know well as they have been around for years in htis industry with you. I will ask one of them to contact you who lost for 400 and I know for a fact as I have been in his home in Florida many times and seen his care, ANY dragon would have been lucky to have him as their breeder/ owner.

Just for the record for others, PCR can be ran on other things besides feces, it can be ran on blood, cloacal/cheek/vaginal and eye swabs, bone marrow, semen, it can even be ran on sweat!! I did not ever see, in trying to read all these threads today, any mention that Denise ever stated that she had her test done at Univ of Florida, I did see that she told others they could get it done there, i do too now.. they are cheaper... but not that she did have the test there.

I would also like to say from what I know personally talking to other vets, researchers, lab techs and lab managers, some of them are being treated incredibly brutal when called by some of those who do not want any dragons to be negative and grilled for information, very intrusive and feeling they are being accused of being shoddy or poor in their work and process or they have done something wrong and are being harassed. What right does anyone have to call to the point of harassment other peoples Vets or Labs? What happened to the professionalism in this industry, why are some so set on ruining relationships with the very people that are there that can help us and provide answer maybe? Do you have any idea how some are looking at the bearded dragon industry now? Here is this group of people that know things, have been advised to take the safe road, yet ignore them and continue to spread around what NO ONE knows the answers for right now and on top of that verbally and in print attack the very professionals that have tried to get them answers?

Just for my own information, I called two other Universities that have never been mentioned here today and asked about PCR on blood and cloacal swabs, my understanding from those was that it is very common not only in birds and other exotics, but for years it was the only way to do DNA test for virus in some exotics so why would it surprise someone that a vet may do it that way? Saying it is not possible is calling someone a liar without you having the facts that it is very possible and has been done for years. I know I have a virus a few years ago, that left me very sick and you know how they went to try and find what it was? A blood test...... how does the US test the donated blood supply or the packed cells that are sold ? blood test. I think we all know that we use to have to wait until a newborn human baby was several months old to DNA test them, due to the amount of blood that had to be drawn, to know for sure who daddy was, but now it can be done with just a simple cheek swap. Time marchs on and some things are perfected, make cheaper to test but that does not mean it is the only way to do it and there is not only one place in the US to do it.

Well maybe you can also explain why Denise can not give the lab, or show proof she has negative dragons. Also, how it is that she can not even keep her story straight on the types of tests she done.

I have another question, how is it she claims:

Originally Posted by Denisebme
The PCR testing has to be done through your vet, if they have the testing avaliable, or you can contact Dr. Jacobson for a kit to take to your vet for the swab and the draw(Its a blood test).

We both know Dr. Jacobson does not blood testing PCR at the University of Florida for this virus. She even gives a price of $65.00 for that testing.

Why would she join in on a thread and complain about people not testing, but when they ask where to get the PCR blood testing she claims to have done, she attacks them?

Cheri, it does not add up. Maybe you can shed some light on this, since you are claiming she has done nothing wrong.

03-31-2007, 09:04 AM
[quote]

Saladragon
The University of Florida doesn't use a blood test as part of the PCR testing.

Florida would like everyone to know they do not do blood PCR and they are upset over this misinformation, Dr. Stacey or Jacobson will speak with anyone.

See, this is why I have a problem with this, there are so many claims and changes in the stories, they can not all be true.

CheriS: Just for the record for others, PCR can be ran on other things besides feces, it can be ran on blood, cloacal/cheek/vaginal and eye swabs, bone marrow, semen, it can even be ran on sweat!!

I agree, this can be done. But we are not talking about PCR in general, we are talking about PCR blood testing on this virus in beardies. See the problem is they must have the markers on the DNA for this testing. They are working on finding these markers, but as far as I have seen they have not yet.

But yes, PCR swab testing has been used for many years on everything from mice to elephants, but that is when they find these markers and can proof positive the DNA.

Bobby, you know if you had just messaged her and asked or asked in a tone that was not accusatory, she probably would have answered you. Also, please do not credit comments to me I never said. I never said she did not do anything wrong, I have no way of know if she is wrong or right. I said she never said she tested with U of FL on any thread I could find and that it is possible to do CPR from blood and swabs. Been done for years that way!!

Now, I am not Einstein but I think I can probably figure this out just knowing what has been done by others over some things on here and this subject.

Maybe she does not want the run- attack- rip the shreds routine that has been practiced by others already on her vet or that she knows has happened to others. Did you see the hatchet job that was done on Dr Went for his small study, because it does not agree with what some want it to be? Have you seen the outlandish claims and quotes that are said to come from Dr Stacey, Dr Jacobsons and Dr Recently that they all deny ever was said by them, or misquotes, twisted, or misinterpreted? Do you now how distasteful that is to them??

Could it just be possible she did have a CPR that was through a blood draw ( it is very possible to do) and a cloaca swab ( again that is possible) and she thought all labs did them the same as her vet and the one he sent it too? Then she saw that the price with the Univ of Fl was half the cost she paid so she wants to refer people there to save what she had to pay?. She is not a professional, PCR to her meant a blood draw and swab like she had, she had no way of knowing there were different kinds of PRC and that FL it from poop. Maybe she does not want her vet upset with more calls, or questioning her why she referred to another clinic or lab or if she doe not trust him since she repeated the tests elsewhere too without him? Maybe the vet took the wrong thing than they should have, but there were still able to test for DNA and get the job done not knowing till later there was an easier way and they feel bad already they were not aware of this?. There are many reason she may not want you, and dozens of others calling her vet and putting her in a bad position with them or harassing him for her reports that no ethical vet in the country would give or discuss one client with someone calling on a phone!

I have seen emails of comments that are like high schoolers, no make that grade schoolers and some of the most bonehead plots and games being played. I have seen claims that I have never talked to or had any contact with some of the professions involved with this. I have been accused of leaving out comments in letters that I received from the same people I have been accused of never having contact with (figure that one out) what rubbish!

Simple fact is some people need money from something- will do anything to keep that flow going and trash anyone they can in the process.

OH, and in all those year of collecting necropsy reports and tracking Adeno positive dragon and where they came from, never ONCE, not one time was there one traced from Sandfire Ranch or Kevin Dunne. Now you would think that says something when so large a place that puts out so many dragons, has none reported going back directly to them, yet another breeder that is a faction of the size and amount sold, has several dozen coming from them. I do not know what is going on now with them, they may have issues or they may be like in the past and not a single positive traced to them, I do not now, I know what I suspect, but that is all it is. I also did not see Kevin say they are positive, I saw him say he has been told that all breeders or dragons have it ( told by some breeders that certainly do have it!!) ........ he has never studied it one way or the other as he had no need in the past, he had not problems with it..... see how things grow and are taken out on context on here?

But yes, PCR swab testing has been used for many years on everything from mice to elephants, but that is when they find these markers and can proof positive the DNA.

And you and others are so sure this was not done that you call her a liar? I think you missed something, 1) she had a positive animal for them to draw from. 2) Other Universities already have controls, I do not think that is unique to the Univ of Fl. I may be wrong, but I do not think there is enough laying in this thread or others to be calling someone a liar over it.

Just my opinion, but I think the space, time and effort can be spent on something more productive and positive for the dragons than that

The issue which worries and concerns me the most...and it may be JUST ME, but it seems as if this whole adenovirus "scare" is some what a little over exaggerated and the mass paranoia it's creating may be leading to the needless euthanization and culling of otherwise healthy and thriving dragons.

I have never seen where anyone is telling anyone else to cull or euthanize healthy and thriving dragons, the only ones I am personally aware of ahead of time that were euthanized were individuals that had mass die offs and wasting babies in their colonies and it was confirmed not only by a fecal protocal test, but also necropsy on some that had already died that adeno was present AND the organs had the classic markers of lesions and necrosis.

So far based on what has been posted on some of these threads by first hand accounts and quotes from the various Doctors involved, and please correct me if I'm wrong as I've just recently started following some of these threads and researching for myself....

1. There is no absolute test which will prove positive...apparently some dragons can test false negative and possibly vice versa.

I do not think this is correct, once positive they have the virus it does not go away and a dna test will show it still there, you may have a fecal test that does not showing shedding at that time (and that is still under question) OR you may have a dragon that showed another species adenovirus that was in them, but not and COULD NOT infect them with the adenovirus that does affect bearded dragons. This can be seen in fecal protocal test that come back saying one or a few particles or partial particles found and they are advised to retest in a few months. <--- this is something that gets ignored often it seems and is very IMPORTANT.. you have a cold and cough around your pets, you can have adenovirus from you, show up in their test or from other animals in the home or environment.

2. There are no absolute known symptoms associated with this virus, however some of the tests were performed on dragons that were already compromised one way or another and the tests/doctors don't indicate if the adenovirus caused the symptoms or the symptoms were a direct result of some other factors...what it boils down to is some of the sick dragons were tested, positive results were obtained....but no one can say for certainty that the adenovirus was directly at fault and that no other factors could've contributed, yet it seems every time someone reports a dragon is getting sick...its gotta be the adenovirus

See my answer above and also the necropy summary of finding I typed out. There was no other listed cause or findings in that necropsy report or many others I have here and have collected long before there were testings so available and a necropsy is not a false postive. There are a vaiety if symptoms that can be displayed, often broken down by age, but no written in stone ones that are always present

3. There are currently no known cures or treatments

there are support things that can be done to keep one positive in the best chance for a healthy condition, but your right, no cure and also no evidence that any dragon has developed an immunity to this

4. Some adenovirus dragons are living healthy, productive, and thriving lives

yes, but the still can infect others and young are especially susceptible as they have no immune system as are breeder females or any dragon that is otherwise immune compromised. Postive animals are simply not the same as healthy, productive, and thriving bearded dragons. They can infect other and destroy a colony, not all, maybe not even the majority, but no one knows right now what is the catalyst or the result of any passing of the virus will end in. We have seen several times now and entire colonies affected with many being lost and the only casue that could found was the obvious ones on necropsy that are consistant with adenovirus infections.

5. There are accounts of adenovirus in other captive and wild populations of dragons worldwide.....this is not a USA specific issue

I believe the first cases were in Australia and New Zealand, with other cases reported in IL and some other states, these were considered isolated outbreaks in a breeders colony, zoo or wild. BUT.... today almost all the cases that were confirmed in the past by necropsy, liver bio and now fecal test came from the same breeder or that breeders lines that were sold to others. England did set up testing, but my understanding there were not enough testings or positives found for the vets and labs to continue making it available, there have been some postive on necropsy from Japan, Italy, Belgium, Germany and I think it was the Netherlands, but also in those areas there are far more necropsies that indicate no adneo and other casues of deaths. That is the same for necropsies in the US from a few years ago, rarely was adeno mentioned in them as a factor, casue of death. or even found in the Bearded Dragons.

In my personal opinion...based on those above factors, why anyone would automatically suggest culling or euthanization is beyond me.

that is a personal decision that each breeder or owner needs to make for themselves, based on what they are seeing, I do not pass judgement on them on way or the other, I DO object to the selling of positive animals without the buyer being made aware of it.

Could it be that most if not all dragons may possibly have the adenovirus can, have and will continue to be productive, healthy and thrive with no ill effects?

Some certainly will, there was one followed over 4 years time and although he did have problems off and on, he passed away at age 6 years. But, he remained able to infect other dragons, he also left us a lot of information, as he was the male that produced many of the babies that were used in the only limited over time research that has been done on this virus by a professional. His name was Frantz and his mate was Anna, who passed away after laying several clutches in two years time. Where they came from is not a question, they were the owner's only dragons, they were shipped direct from the breeder and never had contact with any other dragons or did the owner have any contact with others. All those babies were positive and many of them went to research that helped develop the fecal test that is used today at the University of IL, but that was not the first or only University doing this testing.

It doesnt seem to me that anyone has stepped up and claimed that the adenovirus is the "black plague" which should be avoided at all costs because it will lead to the destruction and death of entire collections / populations...well maybe people have made that claim but is there anything to substantiate it?

It *CAN* be very destructive as there has been no other cause constantly linked to some mass deaths in colonies and there are far more than are being seen on these post online. I stopped posting on these and many other will not get involved due to all the conflicts, twisted words. mudslinging and outright lies by some people. Some breeders lies (surprise!!), some do not want it known that they have it and have known they have it for years and fatalities in thier colonies. Some are trying to start over and do not want it know that 1 or a few of a dozen of their dragons tested positive. Yes they also have healthy appearing dragons, but so did some of the breeders that lost almost all of their dragons or a large portion, no one knows the answers to this yet and it has been advised by the professionals not to breed positive dragons. The really interesting thing is that often, breeders with known positive animals, had the option of breeding know negative animals or selling known negative clutches and they choose to ignore that, breed positive ones or ones that had very good reasons to think were positive or sell off babies that are positive, positive babies who had clutchmates die offs and young breeder parents' already dead before the babies hatched....without telling others, many of those breeders with dozens of dragons already in their homes. That was and is wrong, not matter how healthy their dragons looked as they packed and shipped them.

We're not talking about something like IBD in pythons and boas...something that literally effects the outwardly appearance of a infected animal and then ultimately leads to its demise....no ifs ands or buts, if a python or boas gets IBD.....its ultimate fate will be death whether by the hands of the owner or by nature itself....there is no escape.

Please correct me if I am wrong here, my only information on IDB comes from Dr Jacobson in several conversations,and one with Dr Wissman also present, but I thought that they can harbor this disease for years and not have any outward signs, then they can appear and waste away or starve to death. Bearded dragons do not have the years of life that biods do, so that can not be compared really, but I understood that it can be in them for several years and the owner never know until neurological signs or eating signs appear. This is also what has been observerd in some adult dragons that are positive as they grow older. NOTE: due to lack of prior testing, there is not a lot of information on this. IBD I thought young were more susceptible to and would show signs earlier, or the immune surpressed just like bearded dragons. Support care and cleanliness can lengthen the life of snakes just like bearded dragons, but it does not casue the virus. Controlling any secondary infections is vital(bacterial, fungal or protozoal) just like bearded dragons and both still have a lot of needed reserach to be done. I have seen sildes of both virus, and they do look a lot a like to me. Both have questions that the snakes and the dragons, may not be the primary source of the infection as they do affect many differently and they can be getting them transmitted from another animals or insect. Again, please correct me if I am wrong, I have spent much more time with lizard species than with snakes or studying them and their illnesses

Is this how the adenovirus should be perceived? Is there any proof positive that this is the type of problem we're headed towards?

Just as it is thought that IBD may be world wide and eventually in all collections some day, this can also happen to bearded dragons, the difference is we do have an inexpensive test now that we can have the dragons tested for.... maybe not perfect, but better than what snake people have right now for IBD. We also had a chance to help control this a few years ago, when the majority of necropsy and testings went back to only less than a handful of breeders.. I think you or any snake person would like to turn back the clock on IBD if that was known and what breeders lines it was predominant in and test those or avoid breeding them?