What's with the price crashing?

Originally Posted by WingedWolf

Utta, the price usually drops--the question is, by how much. You can't tell how much the price is likely to drop until you can gauge the DEMAND--ie, how many people are buying, and how much they are willing to pay. For folks to simply go 200 bucks under last year's price makes no logical sense, no matter how many people there are breeding lower-quality animals. You can't judge how much the most butt-ugly animal you had the misfortune to produce will be worth until you know how much the average ones should be going for...until you know what the demand is.
(Just kidding--I've never seen a butt-ugly ball python, they're all gorgeous, some are just more so than others).

ill use an example. Sorry for the confusion.

Say someone last year buys the cheapest lesser they can find: $450. Its a low quality lesser. The lesser babys look like daddy lesser, that means they price the babys lower for a quick sale.

Now, I'm with you WingedWolf, I think price should be based by demand. Just trying to explain what I think causes the price to drop.

Originally Posted by Southern Wolf

But why should the price have to drop... its not like snakes are a staple of life... they are an extra.... you DONT have to have them. So why should the price drop... either you can afford it now.. or you will save up a bit

Originally Posted by Southern Wolf

But why should the price have to drop... its not like snakes are a staple of life... they are an extra.... you DONT have to have them. So why should the price drop... either you can afford it now.. or you will save up a bit

You answered your own question. They are not a staple of life. Just in case you've been living in your snake room ( no insult intended, that was only sarcasm ), the economy has been in the pits for the last couple of years so most people have little disposal income and, for most people, even those in the hobby, aquiring new pets is not a priority so the demand is going to drop and pricing will have to drop or breeders, profesisonal or hobbyists, will have to spend their own money to raise all those beautiful babys themselves. Remember for most people this is a hobby, not a business, and they are looking for pets, not investments.

The price doesn't have to drop. It just has in previous years, due to increasing supply slightly overtaking demand. I'm not sure that's true yet this year. Some folks are still hurting economically, but some areas are recovering pretty well.
We saw a big dip last year...I'm wondering if the prices might actually go UP for a change, once the market (and the people selling) realizes what the true demand is.

It just absolutely shocked me to see people coming in at the beginning of the season with animals priced half what they were last year...I'd seen people 'price crashing' before, but never like that. And it was more than one person!
I guess there's a first time for everything.

It makes it really hard to figure out current market prices, though!

Well for all of you griping about dropping prices.... mine are staying the same as last year. Either folks will buy... or I will feed. Makes me no difference. Even though I run it as a business.... I still have a real job to make ends meet with.

Here is the key point.... you dont buy the 2010 babies this year... I will mark em up as yearlings next year.

I hate to see prices drop as well, but you have to look at it from all sides right now. The economy has not really recovered yet. The job market is frozen right now as well as wages, while the cost of basic needs have increased. You can tell people are still hurting by tracking the classifieds. How many new ads pop up every week saying about how they are selling to pay bills or they can't afford to take care of them anymore? A lot of people got into ball python breeding thinking they could make a quick buck off it. Most people who have been around for a couple of years know a lot better, but still people were pushing the whole idea of ball pythons as an investment for everyone. (Kinda like real estate!) It will take a couple more years for the curve to flatten now that it has been up set like it has and that doesn't take into affect everything else that is pushing on prices right now of not just ball pythons, but other species of snakes as well. Some people will take it in stride others are panicing and trying to sqeeze out everything they can while the gettin is good so to speak. Another factor affecting prices is the new guy/girl. If nobody jane is trying to sell at the same prices as the big names in the industry who is going to buy from her?

All and all the only thing a hobby/small scale breeder can do is hold on. Also where does the little guy go to figure out how to price his animals? They have never sold or bought a bumblebee, but now that they have made 3 what do they base the price of extras on? I'll tell you what they do, they look at current ads and see what the price is that they seem to disappear at, what other option do they have!

Originally Posted by Gloryhound

I hate to see prices drop as well, but you have to look at it from all sides right now. The economy has not really recovered yet. The job market is frozen right now as well as wages, while the cost of basic needs have increased. You can tell people are still hurting by tracking the classifieds. How many new ads pop up every week saying about how they are selling to pay bills or they can't afford to take care of them anymore? A lot of people got into ball python breeding thinking they could make a quick buck off it. Most people who have been around for a couple of years know a lot better, but still people were pushing the whole idea of ball pythons as an investment for everyone. (Kinda like real estate!) It will take a couple more years for the curve to flatten now that it has been up set like it has and that doesn't take into affect everything else that is pushing on prices right now of not just ball pythons, but other species of snakes as well. Some people will take it in stride others are panicing and trying to sqeeze out everything they can while the gettin is good so to speak. Another factor affecting prices is the new guy/girl. If nobody jane is trying to sell at the same prices as the big names in the industry who is going to buy from her?

All and all the only thing a hobby/small scale breeder can do is hold on. Also where does the little guy go to figure out how to price his animals? They have never sold or bought a bumblebee, but now that they have made 3 what do they base the price of extras on? I'll tell you what they do, they look at current ads and see what the price is that they seem to disappear at, what other option do they have!

Exactly!!! A few years ago it seemed like everybody was getting into ball pythons.... And even people that exclusively bred other species started picking up ball python morphs to diversify their breeding projects....
There are ALOT of people breeding ball python morphs......


If you look at it like this..... People don't go out and buy 1 ball python morph just for a pet.... The only way someone is going to drop that kind of money is to breed them.... so your customers quickly turn out to be your competition.... Buyers quickly become sellers.... Eventually you run low on buyers... That's the nature of the morph market.... the only way you can really stay very lucrative is to stay on top of the trends and produce new stuff..... Mix that in with a bunk economy..... anti reptile climate.... and an oil crash... and you have no sales......

I haven't been seeing 'no sales'. I mean, I sold out of last year's hatchlings before this year's crop was in the incubators, so really, it's not that bad at all.

I think some part of the problem is folks telling people this isn't a good investment. Of course it is a good investment, so long as you don't expect to see returns before 4 years (minimum). If someone's fine with that, I would ENCOURAGE them. Because my competition are my CUSTOMERS...see? It works both ways. Driving people away from investing in and breeding ball pythons is just like stabbing yourself in the foot, if you're a breeder. No matter how many ways you look at it, if people aren't buying ball pythons to breed, there is no one who will pay money for that new, interesting morph. The more people you have doing so, the more that morph will be worth. If the market doesn't keep expanding, then you're right--only the people with the very best will be able to 'make it'.

So be encouraging. Be honest about it, let people know what to expect, but don't discourage them, because that's counterproductive. That way, we don't run low on buyers...and neither do the buyers, when the time comes. Etc.

I absolutely do not believe there is a set cap on this, because all the bush babies coming over from Africa prove there is an ongoing interest in these snakes, and the pet trade is always there as a 'release valve' at the bottom.

The folks who seem to be ACTIVELY trying to discourage new breeders, and ACTIVELY dropping prices far below what they should be...what is their agenda in all this? I don't get it. This isn't just dropping the price tag 50 bucks to make a quick sale, these are animals priced hundreds under what they should be. You cannot blame that on a saturated market (which doesn't exist, by the way).

Just because you can breed ball pythons, doesnt mean you are a true business man.

Just a thought.

This isn't just a BP (the snake, not the oil company) phenomenon...although it may be more obvious there. Heck, I've seen people posting ads and dropping prices before babies have had their first shed. THAT is the way the new kids play. These are the people that I have been talking about for years...the ones that breed without developing an experience and knowledge base, the ones that aren't prepared (or willing and able) to deal with offspring, the ones that are more interested in getting them gone than anything else. How else can one explain the rate at which so many people drop their prices? I've seen the arguments about Business 101, and the need to adjust pricing til things sell...but, I don't totally buy it - not when people are lowering prices like that. It seems more like cutthroat competition in which the players can't see beyond the clutch of babies that just hatched....totally oblivious to what their decisions might mean for the clutches still in their incubators.

I mentioned this wasn't limited to BPs...I also breed boas, and when looking at some of the prices this year, I was surprised to see some morphs priced at $1000 less than late last year - and that was for the first ones I'd seen advertised. As if that wasn't bad enough, a few weeks later I've seen those same morphs advertised by a few other people at another $600-700. That puts those babies at approximately 1/3 the price I saw 09s advertised at last year. Sure there's a greater supply, but a modest price reduction would have opened that morph up to a huge new consumer group....what the drastic drop did was devalue those animals, and whatever investment those people made. I really don't understand what people are thinking...if I can't deal with the babies, I don't breed the animals. Simple.
Not everybody needs to be a breeder - and that isn't from an elitist perspective.
People just need to consider what it is that they're doing. I don't breed every female I have, just because I can; but it seems that some newcomers focus on production numbers for the sake of bragging rights. It's great that they can produce 50, or 100, or 150 babies...but, when their sales plan significantly devalues those babies, what's the point? A little bit of self control would have done wonders.

Originally Posted by hhmoore

This isn't just a BP (the snake, not the oil company) phenomenon...although it may be more obvious there. Heck, I've seen people posting ads and dropping prices before babies have had their first shed. THAT is the way the new kids play. These are the people that I have been talking about for years...the ones that breed without developing an experience and knowledge base, the ones that aren't prepared (or willing and able) to deal with offspring, the ones that are more interested in getting them gone than anything else. How else can one explain the rate at which so many people drop their prices? I've seen the arguments about Business 101, and the need to adjust pricing til things sell...but, I don't totally buy it - not when people are lowering prices like that. It seems more like cutthroat competition in which the players can't see beyond the clutch of babies that just hatched....totally oblivious to what their decisions might mean for the clutches still in their incubators.

I mentioned this wasn't limited to BPs...I also breed boas, and when looking at some of the prices this year, I was surprised to see some morphs priced at $1000 less than late last year - and that was for the first ones I'd seen advertised. As if that wasn't bad enough, a few weeks later I've seen those same morphs advertised by a few other people at another $600-700. That puts those babies at approximately 1/3 the price I saw 09s advertised at last year. Sure there's a greater supply, but a modest price reduction would have opened that morph up to a huge new consumer group....what the drastic drop did was devalue those animals, and whatever investment those people made. I really don't understand what people are thinking...if I can't deal with the babies, I don't breed the animals. Simple.
Not everybody needs to be a breeder - and that isn't from an elitist perspective.
People just need to consider what it is that they're doing. I don't breed every female I have, just because I can; but it seems that some newcomers focus on production numbers for the sake of bragging rights. It's great that they can produce 50, or 100, or 150 babies...but, when their sales plan significantly devalues those babies, what's the point? A little bit of self control would have done wonders.

Excellent post...

I can never see the rush to sell offspring. It seems that people forget to take into account how many babies they can care for and sell over the course of the year. I only produce what I can care for without causing undue hardship with both my time and my checkbook. I take pride in the animals I produce and get every penny out of them that I can. I have no problem waiting till spring to sell a 500g female for double what people were blowout pricing them for as hatchlings in August.

I do feel bad because these sellers miss the whole point of breeding for a hobby. It's fun to have baby snakes around. It's nice to go into a room and look over the babies you produced and how they come along as they grow. If your careful, and don't bury yourself in hatchlings that you can't sell, your less likely to burn out and drop the hobby.

People need to realistically look at how many animals they can sell in a year. Even at blow out prices it can take time to sell an animal. The reptile market is not like a regular retail market. It's not always about your price, typically you just need to wait for the right buyer to come along. I have had certain animals for dirt cheap at a show with the intension of selling them to make space. 3 months later no one has even shown interest. Then I raise the price about 25% above market because I no longer need the room..... and sell 3 to one person.

It's not about having the right price, it's about waiting for the right buyer.