Yes, I'm going there: any updates on the scaleless gene yet?

If I wanted a 'scaleless' snake it would be easier to just get an eel.

I understand that, but I wasn't seeking opinions about how people felt about scalelessness in snakes. I was asking about the progress of the project in ball pythons, given the silence on the issue.

I'm not sure that everything here is completely accurate. There are a lot of rumors going around that I haven't seen substantiated.

Steve, just curious, where did you hear that they have organ failure?

BHB are the ones who originated the SH project. They also originated the clown project, sunset project, etc...where are all of the sunset combos and why weren't they the ones coming out with all of the cool clown stuff? If they were the first to have it and it was a number of years ago, shouldn't they have a huge stock by now?

The thing is, a lot of large breeders in the know stated that BHB is having issues with snakes dying. This would explain why they haven't done anything with the sunsets or clowns. It would also explain why there haven't been any more scaleless.

You have to keep in mind, this is a recessive gene, you can't just pump it into a bunch of females and get combos out. There are a number of people with females this year that have just now reached sexual maturity. We will know in the next few months (hopefully) as a few people have finally done het to het pairings.

I don't see one point (BHB) as a correlation. Until we see more people hatch them out we don't really know. I've talked to multiple people who personally held the scaleless snake BHB produced and said that it was perfectly healthy, no issues at all. I've watched videos of the snake and do not see any issues with it. All of the negativity is based on rumors, I have seen zero factual basis for any of it.

This is from Winston at WHS. He was sued by Brian for something ridiculous and won the case. He was one of the first to be looking into the SH project and was originally offered the microscale snake that ended up with NERD.

Just to reiterate, this is recessive and no one has had females that were ready to breed until now. That's why you see a bunch of het combos for sale (males can breed at a year old) but no visual scaleless. Give it time.

Originally Posted by MCMB-2

Steve, just curious, where did you hear that they have organ failure?

The person who bought the snake from BHB.

But scaleless isn't just owned by BHB anymore. I saw multiple breeders in Daytona with het scaleless animals. Even if Brian may be having issues at his facility, I find it hard to believe that other breeders have not yet produced homozygous scaleless, given the preponderance of hets out there. Aren't there also two independent lines of scalelessness too? Brian had one, the other is the microscale, and I forget who originated that one?

My goal here is not to incite drama. I am simply wondering if this project is viable, and have seen a lot of defensiveness and angry emotions from those working with the gene, which is alarming. Generally where there is smoke there's a fire.

Originally Posted by SPJ

The person who bought the snake from BHB.

I still don't see one point as a correlation.

I think that people are generally angry at Brian because he hasn't promoted the project at all. He sold the hets to people and then kept quiet about everything. For over a year no one heard or saw anything about the scaleless snake Mr. Smooth, and so of course everyone started assuming (reasonably so) that it had died or had problems. Then all of a sudden it shows up at Daytona and is perfectly fine.

Everyone is mad at Brian because he made it seem like there were issues by not saying anything. Again, as a recessive, no one has had females ready to go until now. Either this year or next we will see more visuals, Brian should have had more by now but as Winston's post suggests, there may be something more going on.

Originally Posted by snowgyre

But scaleless isn't just owned by BHB anymore. I saw multiple breeders in Daytona with het scaleless animals.
.

People bought the scaleless head males for 50k, and then held back females to group up. You're talking a minimum 4 year investment to go from a hatchling male to breeding him and growing up one of his daughters to breed back. Like I said, no one has had females that were ready to go until now.

I find it hard to consider one person buying a snake and having it die a sure sign that all related snakes will have the same problem. That's a pretty ridiculous leap to make. Just my opinion.

Maybe there are issues, I don't think anyone knows for sure at this point. If a bunch of people hatch out scaleless this year and we still don't hear anything, THEN I'll start to worry.

Also, there is the BHB line of SH, WHS line, and the microscale (completely separate). Winston was taken to court by Brian for saying that his line was the same, but it turns out that it is (some kid bought a "normal" from Brian at a show that turned out to be an extremely low expression SH). Winston purchased the group from him and that's where the "WHS line" came from.