Red Belly Texas Indigos?

Jeff sent me this pic from a private source who lives in Texas, and spends a good amout of time in the field. I will let Jeff verify the source if he wants. But this picture, I think, does demonstrate that there are Texas indigos in the wild with red on the belly. You just have to look closely, and ignor the red parts that are from injury. But if you do, you can see the bright redish orange of the belly scales on the front end of the body, just like the pics posted of Terry's captive red bellied Texas indigo. So in my opinion,..they do exist in the wild. How they got there?,... are they hybrids caused by wild release of couperi?,... and is this guy taking them from the wild?,... are just some of the questions in my mind.
T.

I don't know this guy, but I will weigh in that the indigos with the most red areTexas Indy's period..I'm old enough to have legally collected many specimens in the 60's and early 70's..Most have very red chins and bellies sometime almost down to the vent..I had one a few years ago, that was so red Dean A initially thought he was an Eastern until I told him it wasn't..
I'm not sure what set the guy off on Tony, but I thought that was very uncalled for..
Also, I thought I knew of most of the breeders of Dry's and I've never heard of this guy who says he usually produces over 100 babies a year!!! Dr G

Very interesting. Nice to hear from someone with first hand experience regarding red texans. Are they locale specific? All that I have seen locale specific are from the southern range and have no red. Any good photos floating around that you should share as most of us have not seen them? I would be very interested in some nice red bloodlines of pure erebennus that could be used for educational purposes in GA without the impossible permits. But if they look that much like couperi, they must be easily distinguished as erebennus by scalation.

Sorry, I'm on the road and don't have access to my pics, but as I mentioned I had one a few years ago that fooled Dean A..I think he went to Gerald Germany in '03..
As far as locality, I caught most of them around Laredo, but also as far south as Harlingen..That was 30+ yrs ago! I'm too old to remember where the ones with the most red came from!! But they do exist..Jeff S has one of mine right now and he is also very red, and 9' long! The difference is really obvious most of the time because of the speckling on the sides most TXN's have..
Re: the rumor of Easterns being let loose in S TX..I don't believe it..There are way too many TXN's in the wild to worry about bringing in any Easterns..So I doubt there any wild crossbreeds..Remember there are HUGE ranches in S TX that will never be broken up(think King & Kennedy Ranches+ more)..The TX Indy is in no way endangered or threatened..I'm not really sure why they are even protected by law..I think it was a reflex action after the Eastern went "on the list"
Dr G

Let's go look, see this winter, during mating.

Oh, I almost forgot,...It's good to see you over here on the dark side Carl!

Very nice. Gerald lives here in town. I have talked to him about photographing some of his collection here soon so hopefully I can get some good shots.

Gerald Germany,...
Now there's a guy with a ton of knowledge! I'd like to see him in here! I have not spoken to Gerald in quite some time. How's he doing? The phone calls are too expensive, and his e-mail just won't let me through. Please give Gerald my regards, and extend an invitation to visit here. I believe he could make a significant contribution of wisdom!
T.

All this over one red bellied, black snake! ;0)

I'm surprised none of you recall Terry offering the red D. m erebennus last year, as I made a few post regarding the amount of red the snake within the photo harbors. As I recall, that's the same photo Terry posted to his add last year as well. However, he did post some baby photos and I believe he sent some photos to the "Wall" as well, but all were anterior shots.
On a good note, I will be receiving photos of some of Terry's '05 D. m erebennus in the near future and will let you know what I find and, provided the owner gives me permission, I will post the photos as well.
Dr. G told me of the red D. m erebennus he found around Laredo, back in the day, and such carries a great deal of weight for me, even though I have found six specimens in and around Laredo, 2 DOR and 4 live, none of which harbored enough red coloration worth mentioning.
As for D. couperi being released in Texas; I was given this information personally by John Cherry, a lifelong Texas resident, environmentalist and herpetoculturist. Personally, I believe any information coming from John carries a bit of weight as well and I do not find it too difficult to believe, as I know a few proprietors of large ranches in South Texas, having a cousin among such, and it has been said a few were vacationing in So. Florida, back in the day, and found someone selling them at a roadside gas station / deli / snake show sort of place, anyone who traveled through the South back in the day can remember such places too, as I recall seeing D. couperi for sell within such, in Florida, for $10.00 per foot and H. s suspectum sold at such places for $20.00 each in AZ! Anyhow, it is believed the ranchers thought they were interesting snakes, looking much like their own “blue gophers” and bought the guy out, along with any others they found along the way home, only to set them free upon their property once they arrived home. I do not find this so difficult to believe, as I know Texas ranchers are not the type to do anything in a “small” way and such are quite well known for rather eccentric and spur of the moment acquisitions. While I do not know for sure, there is certainly the possibility of such having occurred. However, if such has anything to do with the red coloration found among some populations of D. m erebennus ? Who’s to say it is or it isn’t?
However, I will point out, many populations of “like” Drymarchon spp. are highly variable from one locale to another and instances of high red – no red coloration can be found in D. couperi and D. m rubidus as well, but I don’t think anyone released D. couperi along the western coast of Mexico, in the state of Jalisco, where most of the red D. m rubidus appear to originate from…

Best regards,

Jeff

I never thought my inquiry would develop so much interest and become so fascinating! I'm learning a lot from this re Texas Indigos and Drymarchon in general. I'm checking my email constantly to check-out the latest posts.

Jeff, is that a D. m rubidus in the pic? It sure is handsome.

Tony, that DOR shot is literally crushing. What a shame.

The more I learn, the more I want one!

Thanks everyone!

John DeMelas
Oak Ridge, TN