Adam Tawfeek & Jesus Blackman Rojas

Dan may be okay with breaking contracts whether verbal or in writing but that’s on you. When I make an agree I stick to it whether I like it or not.

Also you may have missed that Adam met with me on April 30th to pick up his Pastel Phantom or that we both agreed to discontinue breeding his Pastel with my Clown. It was also agreed that he would get his Pastel back in July providing she lacks signs of becoming gravid. If she shows signs of becoming gravid then she will stay here just as Adam and I originally agreed upon. I’m not trying to take advantage of him but I’m also not going to let anyone take advantage of me. I’ve been really patient with him despite his mood swings. It was also his threat to me to post our emails on the BOI and then Jesus posted up on the FB Ball Python Breeders group as noted in this screenshot.
Tell me how I was not in contact with Adam during that time frame?

Originally Posted by Bobby Douglass

No matter how long it took? In my opinion both parties acted very immature in this deal. What was the purpose of Steve trying to force the other party to send a shipping label instead of allowing him to come pick up his snake? He sure seemed to be on some kind of a power trip to me. On another note, people shouldn't be buying more snakes if they can't afford to take the ones they have to the vet.

For the breeding season, that's what I got out of the posted communications.

I do have to agree that Steve said quite a few things that were childish and unreasonable. Would I do business with either party, no ... one doesn't understand the value of ones word & the other resorts to petty demands.

My reason to want to ship was to avoid any possible altercation.

Originally Posted by SERPENTS DEN

If you want to pick up the Phantom that's fine but I already started breeding the Pastel het Clown so she'll have to stay here.

Originally Posted by SERPENTS DEN

My reason to want to ship was to avoid any possible altercation.

Had he threatened you to get you to go back on your word?

Bobby, The Pastel female he was suppose to bring up to me in September and if he had done that I would have bred him to the Pied I bred my Clown too. He didn't bring his snakes to me until Nov 24th and 50 days later after I bred his Pastel multiple times is when he wanted to not keep his word.
The Pastel Phantom I had no problem giving him back to him at anytime.

Everything said between us is documented in the messages I posted and I haven't gone back on my word and I'm sticking to our agreement.

Originally Posted by SERPENTS DEN

Dan may be okay with breaking contracts whether verbal or in writing but that’s on you. When I make an agree I stick to it whether I like it or not.

Like you agreed to let him come and pick up his male, then suddenly decided to change your mind? Only to eventually relent and at least allow him to pick up one of his snakes? Yeah, you're a bastion of integrity and consitancy.

If my only options are to choose between being the bully or the victim, yeah, I'll gladly choose the latter - the victim who calls an obviously vague agreement into question, and simply wants what's rightfully his. I have no interest in clinging to that which isn't mine. Sadly, your own sensibilities make you perfectly content to be the former.

Originally Posted by SERPENTS DEN

Also you may have missed that Adam met with me on April 30th to pick up his Pastel Phantom or that we both agreed to discontinue breeding his Pastel with my Clown. It was also agreed that he would get his Pastel back in July providing she lacks signs of becoming gravid. If she shows signs of becoming gravid then she will stay here just as Adam and I originally agreed upon. I’m not trying to take advantage of him but I’m also not going to let anyone take advantage of me. I’ve been really patient with him despite his mood swings. It was also his threat to me to post our emails on the BOI and then Jesus posted up on the FB Ball Python Breeders group as noted in this screenshot.
Tell me how I was not in contact with Adam during that time frame?

Funny thing about putting someone under duress, by holding their animal hostage: they're often willing to do whatever is required to get their property returned, even if it's agreeing to something that they clearly don't want.

Back to projecting your own possibly shady intentions, I see. You've shamelessly exploited every aspect of this situation. Him reclaiming his property would be in no way taking advantage of you. Up until the point where there would be offspring that were definitely sired by your males, AND he'd choose not to give you your rightful cut, that rationalization is just as lame as anything else you're spewed.

Who said anything about you not being in contact with him? As with the terms of the initial agreement, it now appears that you're just pulling things out of thin air. Shocker...

Originally Posted by SERPENTS DEN

My reason to want to ship was to avoid any possible altercation.

Adam is obviously a noob and doesn't understand what a real breeding consist of. It's great to have certain expectations, it's great to want things a certain way and it's great to always hope for the best and all that but as hard as it seems to be for some people to understand, a verbal agreement was made. As hard as it is for some to understand, no knowledgeable ball python breeder would ever expect a breeder loan to take only a few months. Ludicrous. Should one's ignorance and lack of knowledge void a verbal agreement? I don't think so.
I don't think there is much need to break it down into legalities when many of us who actually breed snakes understand whats going on here.
Instead of more justification for someone who can not man up and hold up his end of a deal, we should be calling this what it is.
Making a good deal of assumptions for someone who refuses to even come speak for themselves when the whole problem is laid out in front of us isn't going to help Adam. He needs to be taught to finish out his deals. He needs to be more thorough when making agreements of any kind or else the next thing we might see is another BOI with his name on it. I personally don't know many in the industry that would deal with Adam's shenanigans with a breeder loan. I don't think we'll ever know the answer considering I don't know who would do a loan with Adam after reading this but I have a feeling most would tell him the same thing Steve has said, "she's staying until eggs (per Steve's and Adam's conversations), Adam will receive half the clutch if one appears otherwise Adam will be getting his snake back in July".

I'm not seeing Steve out of line anywhere there. Steve didn't make anything up, he didn't lie, he didn't create his own timeline...he is sticking to the original agreement. He never said he was going to keep her forever if she didn't lay this year, etc...

Adam needs to put his big boy panties on and take a breeder loan for what it is, chill out, let the snakes do their thing, let the guy you oh so trusted with your snakes do what needs to be done to get the best results possible.

Lastly and just for the record...
Ball python breeding season: it can change for everyone but generally we look at 5-6 months of actual pairing with snakes...some people breed year round, some people breed from Jan-Jun, some from Nov-April or May...fact is, 5-6 months is a long estimate...so lets think about this...

Jan 27th Steve gets the snakes
60 days minimum for QT
So somewhere around Mar 27th Steve could finally consider pairing
It's now Jun 3rd...That's a measly 10 weeks (not quite) that he has even been able to pair the Pastel in question! LOL

Justify that as a breeder loan all you want, to us who actually know about breeding ball pythons...that is laughable. That's not a "season"...that's not even a "loan"! That is "hey, feed my snakes for a few months would ya?".

All this talk about "how long"...let's at the very least be realistic here.

I am one that doesn't know much about breeding ball pythons but I have read this thread from page 1 till the end.

it seems to me that some people have issues with serpent den so they believe that he is at fault in this cluster

here is my opinion since a verbal agreement is legal binding as long as both people agree to the terms, then serpent den has the right to hold the female ball until there is proof of pregnancy is determined or failure of pregnancy is confirmed as to the conditions of the verbal agreement that both agreed to. as for the male dying from a URI that is due to Adam not taking the animal to the vet and getting treatment for him. and if Adam wishes to break the verbal agreement then I think serpent den should send the animal back but with a bill for food expense and upkeep while she was in his care. its seems that he wants the female, eggs and the whole cake and since the price clowns can be in thousands of dollars it is not good business sense to break from the deal agreed too

Don't know who the subjects of the thread are, but have been neutral otherwise. I wouldn't do business with any of the parties based on behaviors I've seen here.

Originally Posted by radera5

when many of us who actually breed snakes understand whats going on here.

I bet you can see for miles from that lofty perch ...

Originally Posted by radera5

I'm not seeing Steve out of line anywhere there. Steve didn't make anything up, he didn't lie, he didn't create his own timeline...he is sticking to the original agreement. He never said he was going to keep her forever if she didn't lay this year, etc...

Did you actually READ all the messages your friend there posted? Christ Almighty, it's been a long time since I've seen someone talk to someone else that way. No remorse for the part he had to play in the snakes owner's angst, either. You don't suppose things could have been handled differently at all? Really? There was no timeline given when the snakes were handed over. It wasn't necessarily unreasonable for the owner to be frustrated that his pastel phantom was sitting there in Steve's racks, unused. They're his animals, he has every right to ask for them back, just as everyone seems to think it's Steve's right to keep them as long as he wishes.

Originally Posted by radera5

60 days minimum for QT

I often wonder how many of the "experts" actually practice what they preach?

Steve, I'm pretty disappointed in the way you spoke to this guy. Although I understand you were angry that he was wanting his animals back before you were done with them, he didn't get out of line until you did. Just as he is supposed to trust you to hang onto them, why is that not extended back the other way in allowing him to take his female back and trust that if she lays you'll be given your half? If he was such a bad person, why even enter into such an agreement? He might be a dealbreaker, but you behaved like a child in some of those replies.

Shadera,

Adam could have broken our breeder loan at anytime while I had his snakes in quarantine, I wouldn’t have had a problem with that. He waited until I bred my Clown to his Pastel multiple times.

It’s an assumption but a very valid one that perhaps he had every intention on having me care, feed and breed his Pastel and then expect me to give her back.

I don't know Adam well enough and sorry I can't trust a guy who can’t keep his word.