Zoological Imports 2000

when it comes to distinguishing the difference. First off your correct it would be difficult, but I dont care what they would call themselves providing that they could prove that they are a legal business. Either its a company or a corp. In either case they would have a tax identification # , just like the one I have to produce to avoid paying taxes on whatever I purchase. Secondly, they would have to purchase the minimum which is a standard that we set up. It does not have to reflect on everything purchased, but on items that we feel are necessary in order to prevent people from coming in and picking one or two items and leaving everything else. Finally, I like to know whom i am dealing with. Its not an unreasonable request, and its good business because if I am going to provide you with a product that is going to make you money, and make me money, I want you back.In order to safe guard that commitment from me, I have to have some kind of an idea as to whom your customer base is.

I hope I answered your question. Thats the way we did it. Incidently, you are quite accurate about todays methods for providing a business. Its called email, and the internet. Not a very safe method for my money.

they would call themselves providing that they could prove that they are a legal business. Either its a company or a corp. In either case they would have a tax identification # ,

ok. $65.00 and two weeks wait and that's taken care of. ($40 for a DBA filing with the county, $25 for a resellers permit with the state). Minor hurdle.

Its called email, and the internet.

Jerry, my distributors are very happy with the volume that the email and internet sends them via my business. They supply general pet stores in the local area so while my volume does not beat them overall, on the reptile speciality products I know the volume is very decent.

While I consider myself a legitimate business both in structure and practices there is a competitor that has fulfilled all your requirements and frankly is put by me into what I call the "bottom feeder" category. Practices are what differentiate between "legitimate" businesses and these "bottom feeders". And I agree both customers and vendors should be choosy who they buy from and sell to (I know I am on both accounts). But a regulated, forced structure is wrong.

Adam Smith wrote that a free market place will push towards the most efficient distribution line by natural market forces. This is the effect you are seeing in this industry and in many industries across the board. The inefficient 4 and 5 tier structure is not being supported by the customers, they are the ones that drive the market. If you do not add value at your tier then you will be by-passed by the person below you in the structure.

Let me preface this next paragraph by the statement that if a 14 year wishes to compete then they need to have the proper permits as required by all in the market (noting your example of the fruit fly kid and you needing to have FDA permits). With that said, I am not worried about the 14 year old (as an example) in the next booth. I can out present him, out sell him, and show my customers that I provide more value or I go out of business. If he's found a way to match all my selling points above at a lower cost and stay in business then that's economic darwinism. Ask Kodak (reference to no longer providing film inside the US). As a note, I've experienced this at a show with an adult "14 year old".

a 14 year old compete in a show next to you. I tip my hat! I cannot. I have an overhead, people to pay and personally, if I am not afforded some kind of protection from the show promoter, then I should not be in that show. I cannot revamp my business policies to include every person that decides to compete against me. Ive got to much invested. So do you! We both need the luxury of knowing that accomodating everyone who want to be in the herp business is somehow held accountable . In todays market with the individual influx into reptiles, no one is accountable for anything. The BOI is the only outlet that I know of that unmasks the very people whom you seem to believe should be allowed in the business.

I cannot control the ethics of businesses, but that is not to say that I dont have an appreciation for how you run your operation. As a matter of fact, I am sure all the business would be better off if they used your examples, but just as long as they fulfill their obligation to me the importer, what they do with the animals is out of my control, just as the bottom feeders that you mentioned. But at least you know who your competitors are! Todays market seems to be based on what is easy to breed, easy to dump.

The Leopard gecko is a perfect example. I once counted several years ago at Orlando 65 Leopard gecko people selling the same thing! 90% of them were individuals! They destroyed the market, ended up owing other busineses alot of money , either disapeared or renewed their enterprise under a different name, wainting for the next wonderful reptile to breed !! Why were these people their in the first place? Please dont tell me that this is free enterprise, because these operations are short lived, under capitalized, and hide behind email addresses and business names that get chaned daily. In the end they end up at the BOI.

Daniel, what do you want me to tell you. I am indirectly looking out for your best interest. I hope you are very successfull in your endevors, but realize this the day will come when some kid is going to undercut your business, and the customer base (which has no loyalty when it comes to money) will go to who is the cheaper. Its very nice that the quality of your animals are a primary factor in your business. Personally I would rather pay a little more to insure that peace of mind. But their are others who would not. So, thats it my friend, Ive blown my whistle on this subject for to long now, and I am tired. If your happy Iam happy.
I know longer have the clout that I did at one time. I can only tell you that when people did business with me, they were protected, made money, and knew that they were dealing with a business man who had just as much to loose as themselves. That does not exist in todays world of reptiles.

Jerry, I agree with most everything you said except about a "business" being a "company" or a "corporation". For various personal and/or personal reasons, I have always operated my business as a "sole proprietorship" and pay both personal and "Business" State & Federal income taxes! So, are you attempting to say that a "Business" is only "legit" if it has "company" or "corp" at the end of its name? If yes, then I have to ask do you think this should apply to all businesses or just "herp" businesses? Also, "getting to know" your customer is not a big help as far as I'm concerned. If I operated a "retail" office supply store and you were a office supply "wholesaler" and I called you and ordered a tractor trailer load of copy paper, once I provided you with a copy of my "retail license", would you still "want to get to know me" before shipping?

Thank you.

David Rivers

problem for me either. Anyone would do. Insofar as your example that you provided. Maybe in the manufacturers world it does not present a problem, but in the herp world unless you were willing to take the complete line of what we offered, yes their would be a problem.

I could not afford to allow someone to come in and take 200 pairs of Jacksons at $ 6.00/pr and leave everything else. I am sure you must understand that . Now I am talking about yesteryear, not in todays market.

To be a bit more specific about getting to know you. I dont want you to think that I am crazy, but we could afford to be selective with whom we dealt with. I needed steady customers because we were obligated in getting livestock every two weeks. What value would it be for me to have someone come in once every two months. Not that I did not appreciate the business, but they would be better off getting the merchandize from a wholesaler then coming to me. I also understand that sometimes their are going to be lulls in the business. Sometimes it does not pay to ship because of the winter or severe weather, so our customers hold up their purchases. We resolved that problem by reducing the shipments from overseas . A cause and effect situation.

Now the only reason we were able to get away with these business arrangements were because we controlled the movement of most of the herps that were coming into the US from Africa specifically. Especially when we were the only importers from those countries in 1966.

Anyhow a good business man is going to know his customer.
This also provided me the opportunity to provide credit if it was necessary. That is no longer feasable in this market unless you really know your customer. I know for a fact that LA Reptiles operates exactly the way we did 40 years ago. Not only that but she ships alot of open accounts to her wholesalers, without fear of losing money because she knows her customers. Aside from which you could only screw them once! So it was an important feature for me.................In todays market and I may be generalizing, people dont care about knowing their accounts as much as they know the color of their money. Jerry

Originally posted by KNOBTAIL Age does not seem to enter the picture either as I have seen a 14 year old accompanyment by his mother (because he could not drive) selling veiled chameleons that he bred. Or how about the 16 year old that I saw at one of the big shows also selling chameleons so he could pay for his tuition in college. He incidently was brought their by his father because he did not have a credit card to pay for the hotel, so his father hung around for 2 days while this kid is running 2 booths.

Ummm....please correct me if I'm wrong here, since I am no economics expert, but doesn't this look like a *good* picture and not a bad one? It's great when kids show serious entrepreneurship and even better when their parents support them. If a 14 year old can successfully breed veileds, I say more power to him. And kudos to the 16 year old's dad who was willing to go the extra mile to help him earn his college tuition. Those sound like really great kids to me.

Certainly there are concerns that the young people should be caring for the animals properly and practicing good business ethics, but I've seen adults do such a horrible job of neglecting their animals at shows and ripping people off that I'm sure a motivated 14 year old could do a better job.

So I don't get it....what's wrong with kids getting into the business early, if they're doing a good job of it and all the legalities are seen to by their parents? It is really nice to see young people starting their own serious businesses to pay for schooling rather than hanging out at the mall, wandering aimlessly on the street or getting into trouble with drugs.

If you feel that their is a justification for children to be in business, why even have an age limit. The argument is ludicrous.
Aside from which you completely misunderstood my point. This is a business for business people, not children.

Its very comforting to know that kids rather than hanging around at malls should be selling at reptile shows is another brilliant example of whats wrong with this industry when I receive this kind of a post.

I suppose this should apply then for all businesses and not limit it to reptiles, how about a gasoline station, or maybe a truck route when he turns 16 and gets a drivers licence. The fact of the matter is I seriously doubt that any reptile dealer worth his weight in business would be happy with a 14 year old next to him at a booth as a vendor. Except for maybe you.

The reptile industry is not a dumping ground for children, nor young people to start businesses for college or preparing a child for entrenpeurship. If they want to breed chameleons or leopard geckos or whatever, thats fine with me, but their hobbyists not business people who know nothing about business other than wanting to make some bucks.

Secondly, who will assume the liability for these children if something happens? Who will assume the tax liabilities, or should children be exempt? I dont think so!

Please if you dont have anything constructive to add to this discussion, dont. I get very upset with this kind of response from someone whom I thought from your prior posts that your conversations were well thought out. Their is no place for children in the herp business, and anyone who thinks that its alright to put a child into a vendors spot and allow an adult who may have to feed their family and pay bills loose money, should seriously reconsider their positon.

Secondly, who will assume the liability for these children if something happens? Who will assume the tax liabilities, or should children be exempt? I dont think so!

In most states parents would assume all risk and liability. I think there is a difference between unsupervised children participating at a show and ones working it in conjunction with their parents.


When my father owned our family bakery he used to cuss night and day about the "at home" baker. The neighbor lady who baked a cake for someone on the block for "mad" money. This is not what drove him out of business. Vons/Safeway/Ralphs/Albertsons with their in-store bakeries killed the mom & pop bakeries in CA. He was completely distracted by the nickel and dime stuff that he got hit with the corporate train while his back was turned.

I don't see Minute Maid sueing all the adolescent lemonade stands, their concentrating on grabbing market share from Kool Aid, Coke and Pepsi.

If a 14 year old (and I know we are using age as a substitue for the words backyard breeder) is producing veileds of my quality for less than I am, then he's my new employee (with a non-compete and confidentiality agreement )

Here's the real fear. What if Petco and Petsmarts of the industry just decided to blow all the backyard people out. Their buying power and corporate marketing departments could end it in 6 months. They have the financial backing to take a total loss for 6 months and recoup on the monopoly they would end up with. Just like the Robber Barons of the late 1800's (wasn't that a swell time in US history for the little business?).

Originally posted by KNOBTAIL
This is a business for business people, not children.

I am sorry, but from my perspective I can't agree with that. If the kids are honestly good enough to compete with adults, then it's the adults who need to raise the standards and work harder at doing better.

I agree that the standards can't be lowered for kids. All of the appropriate paperwork, taxes, liability, etc, has to be taken care of, and that means their parents are involved and liable. If the kids are doing everything legally and properly, and their parents are backing them, no one has the right to say they can't be there.

Their is no place for children in the herp business, and anyone who thinks that its alright to put a child into a vendors spot and allow an adult who may have to feed their family and pay bills loose money, should seriously reconsider their positon.

I'm sorry, but any adult who truly cannot compete with a child is going to have problems competing with other adults as well. Needing money to support a family is a reason that you should be working, but it is not a right to keep others from working because they might be competing with you. A fair, open market with unlimited competition is one of the most important concepts behind capitalism and a free country.

I would support and encourage any bright young person who was working hard in a legitimate business to earn money for college. Many of them do need to work to earn money for their education, and they have every right to do that as long as they are doing so legally and are held to the same rules and standards as the adults.

Frankly I'd rather buy from a really dedicated, honest and motivated 14 year old breeder who loves his animals and takes good care of them than a profit-minded resale dealer who views his stock strictly as dollar signs and not as living, feeling creatures. My priority is how the animals feel, not how the dealers feel.

If a dealer wants my support, they need to demonstrate that their standards of care are good, including compassionate veterinary care given to less valuable animals even when it won't show a profit. A surprising number of amateur breeders can do that, and many hardboiled adult businesspeople can't.

This isn't to say that all of the big businesspeople treat their animals badly; many of them do a very fine job. But a lot of them don't, and I'll support an ethical backyard breeder with good husbandry practices over a money hungry big business that kills too many reptiles for profit any day.

What about the hobby aspect of all this? If a 14 year old is seriously interested in reptiles, I think it is fantastic if he has supportive parents that encourage him. If he has the talent and dedication to reproduce veiled chameleons, corn snakes or even, God forbid!, leopard geckos, then what is he supposed to do with the offspring he produces? It doesn't bother me a bit to see other hobbiests selling the same kinds of animals we have at shows. Now when I see dealers/brokers/wholesalers selling the same animals we have for half the price only they are nasty and sick looking, yeah, that bothers the hell out of me. But another breeder? Nah, doesn't bother me at all, in fact, it only spurs me on to produce better animal myself. And I think it is even cooler if it is a young person that is in it for the love of the animals, not for all the other B.S. that goes along with it.