Zoological Imports 2000

Originally posted by Hard2FindHerps
I guess what Id really like to know is what did my thread say that made knobtail question marios legitimacy??? I said he was highly selective of who actually came to him meaning that you cannot just go to Zoological and expect to be let in. Im really confused. Please fill me in.

Goodness, of course not. ZI is located well off the beaten path down a hard to find road, is not open to the public, and has closed, locked gates that will only be opened if you have an appointment. ZI is not a pet store and doesn't try to be one. When they do herp shows, they have a different price list to the public so they do not compete with their own customers. They avoid doing some of the smaller shows that their customers will be displaying at for the same reason.

My business dealings with Mario have primarily been on behalf of venom labs and research groups, occasionally purchasing large lots of venomous snakes and going through a few months of quarantine, health testing, acclimation to captivity and preliminary venom sampling before sending them on to the lab. These dealings have always been very pleasant and positive. So I'm not exactly dealing with him as an individual, though certainly I have picked up a few choice animals as well as a number of rescue cases for my own collection.

As well as ZI maintains their animals, they are still wild caught imports and there have been a number of capture trauma cases. Those poor little guys at least get a chance at the clinic and they contribute something to our knowledge of the special veterinary needs of these species even when we can't save them.

I understand that he does occasionally deal with individual venomous keepers whose competency he trusts. I do not know if he deals with individual keepers of other species. Mario is well aware of the liability issues involved in selling venomous snakes to individuals and as a consequence he makes an effort to exercise some reasonable judgement in this matter.

Like I already said I was employed there for some time and I know where it is and how Mario handles his business. My previous thread was directed towards knobtail who questioned Mario's legitimacy from something I had posted. I still dont understand what that is exactly.

Originally posted by Hard2FindHerps
Like I already said I was employed there for some time and I know where it is and how Mario handles his business. My previous thread was directed towards knobtail who questioned Mario's legitimacy from something I had posted. I still dont understand what that is exactly.

I think Knobtail believes that importers should only be selling to wholesalers and never to any individuals, in order to avoid de-structuring the market. Correct me if I'm wrong; economics is not my strong point.

Are you the nice gentleman who helped me rescue those mambas?

confused. I never questioned Marios legitimacy! I do have a problem with the structure in which this business is being conducted between Importing and the end user. I am referring now to all the importers that seem to operate this way.

Had you read my post, I indicated that I am sure Mario knows what he is doing! I also have a problem with any importer that sells to the public regardless of a price change. Thats about as problematic as a individual customer having a booth next to the pet shop that he frequents!

Now let me just say this, as I indicated in previous threads, and its my own opinion and nothing else. This industry is faultering, much of which is due to the inability of knowing who is who any longer. Personally, I think that the business end of the herp world is diminishing in sales, imports, and breeding. The attraction to losers, thiefs and con artists is increasing. Their will be a melting point one day, and although I believe it will be related to health issues, it will strangle the legitimate dealer because of a lack of credibility that this industry had at one time but no longer seems to consider a factor that exists in almost every industry that starts overseas and ends up to an individual.

Jerry Tresser said: Now let me just say this, as I indicated in previous threads, and its my own opinion and nothing else. This industry is faultering, much of which is due to the inability of knowing who is who any longer. Personally, I think that the business end of the herp world is diminishing in sales, imports, and breeding. The attraction to losers, thiefs and con artists is increasing. Their will be a melting point one day, and although I believe it will be related to health issues, it will strangle the legitimate dealer because of a lack of credibility that this industry had at one time but no longer seems to consider a factor that exists in almost every industry that starts overseas and ends up to an individual.

Like you, I had the same concerns about the potential for the industry pricing structure to implode as long ago as 1997 when I went to MARS and was able to purchase Amel. Burmese pythons for 60$ each. I figured they'd be selling for 30$ by the next year, but wanted to have a pair anyway. To my amazement, I see them listed or nearly 200$ these days, and the price seems to be pretty stable.

I believe the "trouble" came more in the form of individuals who were "dumping" animals on the market, than it has ever some from wholesalers who selectively sell to individuals or who have a tier pricing structure to enable them to sell to a multi-level customer base.

When I first read your response (and yeah, this is directed at Mr. Tresser) it had that "sky is falling" sound to it, to me, and I didn't understand what in the world you were talking about.... here we are 9 pages later, and I think I get it... I know I'm slow....

If memory serves me correctly, there are a lot of companies engaged in this very practice. There are exporters in countries of origin that will GLADLY sell to ANYONE with the money to make freight and it happens all the time. I have been approached by half a dozen of these exporters over the past decade, and I've NEVER been a wholesaler.... asking me if I wanted to buy all manner of "rare" animals. Many of the offers have been tempting, but I do not have to facilities nor the financial ability to make something like importation of herpfauna a reality for me. If I WERE able to do it, I wouldn't. I've come to the point in my life where I believe it is BAD business for us to continue to import on the scale that we used to. I believe the animal populations in the countries of origin cannot sustain our desire for cheap imports for very much longer. I could be, and I hope I am wrong, BUT it is also my belief that we are almost to the point that a person with a "need" for an animal can buy a captive bred animal, and that we as a community should be driving THAT home as our mantra... buy captive bred.... buy captive bred.... buy captive bred.... as the FIRST choice when looking for an animal.... anyone who has ever had to watch an import die, in spite of every effort to save it, knows how sickening it is to lose an animal that probably should have never been put in that air-cargo box to begin with..... we have to convince buyers that is may look like they're saving money when they buy imported pets, but that buying on the cheap is often a false economy... Vet bills, the anxiety of having to deal with a sick animal, replacement costs... etc.... all make it GENERALLY less expensive and a much higher quality experience to buy right, captive bred, the first time.

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but that's what I believe is wrong with the industry.... its the "Walmart" mentality of "falling prices" that has us in trouble, not the importer who structures his prices to enable people on all levels to buy from him (or her). "Always the best price" may work for Walmart, but it doesn't work when we're talking about living, breathing, and feeling animals who deserve better than to be snatched out of the wild, imprisoned without food or water (in many cases) and then sent to America where they have a survival rate as low as 10% in some cases.... No, I'm not a PETA member. I'm an animal lover, and I hate to see animals treated that way, especially when it really isn't necessary to bring in the quantities we bring in every year....

I could rant on, but I just wanted to go on record as having said that you, Jerry, confused me by your first few posts on this subject. I don't know you, and you don't know me, but I believe it when you talk about being in this business a long time. You're one of the guys that could clean things up a bit if you'd get your old buddies to breed instead of import. If we slow down the influx of cheap imports, the price goes up (supply and demand anyone?) on all captive bred making it worthwhile to put the time into the breeding..... I don't see this happening in my lifetime. In fact, I don't see it happeneing until the rumors of them "closing Indo" become reality... and that, my friend, may come at a time when it's too late for many of the species to recover from the overharvesting that I believe is taking place every day.

then they way you may have interepeded. If you are interested in discussing it further I can be emailed at: knobtail@aol.com
The original thread pertained to Zoological Imports . I have no problem with Mario, his operation or whom he sells to. As Ive indicated it his business. I do have a problem with the overall chain from the importer to the end user . It is the end user who has some ideas that they are "entitled" to enter what should be a closed door to them.

I also believe, and its only my opinion as well, that because of this "free for all to enter" whether it be shows, importers, wholesalers, etc. it has made this industry a magnet for the worst kind of element . This trade and I am referring to
the importer only, "should be restrictive" that is to supply wholesalers only. No pet shops, no breeders, no individuals but legal wholesalers in the trade.

This really is going way off topic, so I better stop, but I think you get the gist of my observations. Sorry to ramble on, and enough said on the subject. JERRY

Jerry, We all think that you are a great guy. But I personally would not be the Mack Daddy of Albino Turtles that I am today, if it were not for Bernie Levine and Willy at Pet Farm letting me and all kinds of teenagers in and buy at his place in Miami. Same for Stan Chiras at Reptile Supply in Miami. Way back when ABBA was number one on the radio.

how do I become a member of the Crutchfield club? Secondly, you mention Bernie Levine, Stan Chiris. They both used to buy from me. I happen to have a photo of Stan.

I certainly would have no problem whatsoever back then if the item you mentioned were not a common pet trade herp. I did it myself. But todays market is different. Not only different, but deteriorating especially the shows. Its a grab bag flea market that has increased to at least 12 a month if not more year round and has zero controls as to who these vendors are.

Now you and I both know that their are alot of good people vendors, but can you imagine your customer setting up a booth right next to you! The promoters offer zero protection for their customer base, and will sell to anyone who claims "captive bred" or if its a big enough show "wild caught as well". Their are no controls other than permits that allow you to keep and sell from the fish and wildlife people, and for $45.00 you have a magical booth! Your in business. Age does not seem to enter the picture either as I have seen a 14 year old accompanyment by his mother (because he could not drive) selling veiled chameleons that he bred. Or how about the 16 year old that I saw at one of the big shows also selling chameleons so he could pay for his tuition in college. He incidently was brought their by his father because he did not have a credit card to pay for the hotel, so his father hung around for 2 days while this kid is running 2 booths.

As crazy as these examples are , I see it as a real problem, and being the pessimist that i am, i think unless we have some internal house cleaning, its going to get worse before it gets better.

Ive got to get off this soap box. Please send me an application for Toms Club. Do you ever get to Daytona? JERRY

Jerry, There are no formal applications for The Secret Tom Crutchfield Worldwide Fan Club. Because there are special agents of the government who are desperate to obtain the list, an operative of one of our many sleeper cells will contact you, probably when you least expect it, so don't be alarmed!

Since this thread is still going way off topic, I will put my "two cents" in again, so if you are keeping totals I now have "four cents" invested in this thread. I believe we can both agree that this thread is not going to solve the problems of the "herp" trade, nor can any thread as far as that goes! The first problem as I see it, is you wanting to define what is a "importer", "wholesaler", "retailer", etc. Example: Lets say you were still a "big time" importer as you were in your "Reptile Collectors, Inc." days and you wanted to sale only to "legit" wholesalers, and I was a "wholesaler" who wanted to purchase from you and you requested "proof" that I was a "legit" wholesaler. What proof could I possibly provide that would be rock solid? When I first started as a "wholesaler" in South Carolina, at the time South Carolina did not even require "wholesalers" to be registered with the state, only retailers. And I understand that some states today still don't have any "wholesaler" license requirement. Would you ask me for a copy of a recent ad in a "professional" pet trade publication. What if I did not advertise, but only did direct mail to pet stores like I do now??? Would you ask me for a business card and/or letterhead? No problem, I could make some up on my desktop in 60 seconds! Would you ask me for the names of some other "importers" that I have purchased from or the names of some "retailers" that I have sold to? My response to both would be "thats none of your business"!

I do totally agree with you that "importers" should be selling only to "wholesalers" and "wholesalers" should only be selling to "retailers", but what is a "importer" suppose to do before selling to a new "wholesale" customer and the "wholesale" customer has just started his/her business? Should the "importer" hire a PI to investigate the potential new customer?

Thank you.

David Rivers