Reptile Show Ethics???

Hi all, I am new to this forum and have had a great time reading all the interesting posts.

I am a hobbiest breeder, nothing big just 1 breeding pair of BD. I have been traveling to the reptile shows in my area this year and have noticed a disturbing dichotomy. All shows have a standard table fee, but some shows allow people to pay an entry fee and bring along their own animals to the show for "Trade" purposes. I guess the idea is that someone might have an animal that a vendor might want to trade. Fine, but what I have seen at these shows is people comming in with random snakes over their shoulder, just to show them off. One case in particular a woman had a large rainbow boa with a raging upper respiratory infection. The thing was sneezing all over peoples tables and nobody said anything! Even more bothersome was the group of young girls toting around a bucket of bearded dragons with signs tapped to their backs that read "ask us about our dragons, $85 each" These girls hung out at the show for at least 2 hours, cruising the crowd. I don't know if they sold any, but why should I pay a table fee if I could just pay an entry fee, bring a bucket of lizards and work the crowd? (I would never do this, BTW, I feel it is unethical). There were many more people doing this, these were just 2 examples. I asked the people in charge what was up with all these off the street vendors? The reply was, "we don't usually get this many", but nothing was done. I was really fed up when a giant fat man with 3 adult dragons in a box labled FOR SALE stood opposite my table for 20 min. Thats when I decided I would not come back.

I come from the southwest, land of the IRBA shows. Outside animals are never allowed into the shows. I expected the same when I moved to the other side of the country. I've learned that the industry over here is VERY different than what I'm used to.

What I would like to know is, why do people bother to go to shows like this? With the risks of disease and off the street competition the way it is, I don't think I will go back. I'll stick to the shows that do not allow animals in off the street.

I did not want to mention the shows in particular, some of them have rather good reputations. I am just looking for some oppinions (I'm sure I'll get some good ones

Thanks for listening!
(sorry for any spelling errors, i'm not a child, just a poor speller!)
Kisha

Kisha.... first of all.... WELCOME TO THE BOARD!!

Your scenario is getting all too familiar at shows.... unfortunately, it's the promoter's option to let them in, or not.... the only way to stop this from happening, is to get together with the other vendors at the show and voice your complaints.... I would also INDIVIDUALLY email the promoter telling them of your concern.... Your example of the Rainbow Boa with the RI is a GREAT reason for not letting "outsiders" in the show.... I can understand the promoter allowing people to bring in ONE animal to possibly trade.... but a BOX FULL??? I don't think so! As far as the guy with the box of Beardies that was "hanging out" next to your table.... Personally, I would have kicked his ass out of that spot SO FAST, his head would spin!! That's despicable!.... It's not fair to the vendor's who paid good money for their table fees, transportation, food, lodging, and extra help at the show!
I would ABSOLUTELY voice my ANGER to the promoter, and tell him you will NOT be back if this is allowed.... if ALL the vendor's did that.... I GUARANTEE YOU he will change his tune!
Good luck....

....Neil

Thanks for the welcome, Neil

Any ideas how I can contact the vendors that go to this show, would it be bad form to post a "who goes to this show" request? I would like to persue this matter, as it is one of the biggest most popular shows in my area. I would like to change some of the questionable herp practices that I have noticed on this side of the country.

Not all the shows are this way, several are VERY good and I will continue to attend them as a vendor as long as I have critters to sell.

BTW, I do give care sheets and customer support to all who buy from me at shows! Hope this helps in building a name for myself!

Thanks
Kisha

Kisha.... posting it would be a good thing.... but, if you want to post it on the BOI (where it belongs), you will HAVE TO mention the name of the show.... something like....

PROBLEM WITH THE "XXXX" SHOW.... WHAT SHOULD WE DO?

You can say it any way you want, but, you'll have to mention their name on the BOI part of this site....

....Neil

Thanks, I think I will post on the BOI. Look for it later, I have to clean cages right now. Nasty job, but someone has to
do it....Just kidding, I acutally kind of enjoy it!!!

Happy herping!
Kisha

Kisha.... I own a retail herp shop.... I know ALL ABOUT IT!! Most people call me "Beulah", cause all they ever see me doing, is CLEANING!....

It's those ankle stockings that drive ME crazy! Do they come in size 10??.... lmao

....Neil

Definitely voice your concerns loud and clear to the promoters--remember, they are losing out on table money also when someone comes in with a bucket and a sign instead of buying a table.
I personally do not like the idea of the public bringing in animals period (I am from the soutwest too!), but especially not animals for sale. That should be enforced. I am sure that most if not all of the other vendors feel the same way. Try to remember names, contact the promoter to ask names, post her, collect cards, etc etc...whatever you can do to discuss this matter and get something done about it.
Good luck!
Dana

Sorry but this sounds like a typical case of ‘I have gotta be in control liberalism’ to me. If a promoter chooses to have a show that allows in healthy animals from the "street" as you put it, then whom are you to complain about this rule if you decided to vend at this show in the first place. As opposed to attempting to push your desires onto everyone else, I believe, you should simply have chosen not to have attended this show. It seems to me rather tardy and somewhat pontificate of you to raise this ruckus after the fact. As to sickly animals, if someone indeed had such an ill reptile at the show as the Rainbow Boa described, it would have been much more appropriate to voice a complaint at that time. That complaint should have been made directly to the promoter or his agent at the show. For no one else to have made such a complaint also seems rather unusual to me in light of the fact that vendors at the show had their own herps for sale, and because as a group we herpers all seem very ready to complain about such things. A complaint or complaints should be made against anyone with an obviously sick herp at a herp show; this goes for vendors with obviously sick animals as well as for people who came to the show just to show off or sell a animal or a few (and who were not registered vendors). Of course, someone vending sickly animals may not want to voice a complaint during the show lest that complaint come back around and be aimed at their own animals. (I am not implying that this means you; but I have seen vendors after a show bitching and moaning about such practices and saying, after the fact, the animals off of the street were obviously sick. Of course, that was once there own sickly animals were put away so the promoter would not notice them.)

As far as people selling reptiles they brought with them into the show (when they appear healthy) - if the promoter allows it - what is the problem? If you had inquired beforehand, you would have been aware of this practice. You may not like this happening, but if it is an accepted practice at a show, then so be it. Sure you can form a crusade of vendors to stamp out what you apparently believe to be this ignominious practice; however, you could just as easily choose to either accept it and continue attending this show, or move elsewhere. This type of practice will certainly not wipe out your customer base if indeed you are a reputable vendor with healthy/quality animals for sale at a fair price. It may ad a bit of short lived competition though, that is most assuredly destined to be just that – short lived. Besides that – how many people do you think attend these shows as buyers who are willing to buy from what amounts to no more than a vagabond street vendor. The great majority of buyers I have seen prefer to buy from someone with a table, who has been at the same show over and over again in the past; someone with a good reputation. I have paid my money to sell without worrying about what a thin man (or was it a fat man - pun intended - pun reference to the movie classic The Thin Man) brings in off of the street in a box (as long as they appear healthy).

Now if bringing in animals off of the street was a violation of show rules, that is another story. There are plenty of shows on this side of the country (THE OTHER SIDE - is what I believe you called it) wherein animals are not allowed inside unless they are for sale by registered vendors at the show. When I have attended shows in the past, I often have seen vendors complain to the promoter when the rules have not been followed or when something endangers their animals such as thieves or people bringing in animals from the outside. For the most part, animals from the outside are not allowed into shows; however, if a show allows them in and you do not like it - why complain and ruin it for those who want to bring in animals. In fact why bother going to that show if it pisses you off so much. If you do decide to go, well then why ruin it for those who want to bring in a healthy animal to sell. If that practice is so despicable, or if the competition is too much for you, and if you can find enough of the others who use this site to agree with you, then what next? Will sites such as faunaclassifieds.com become your next crusade? Will you all band together, contact the webmaster at this site as a group, and complain to him that only paid advertisers be allowed to post animals for sale on this site. That does not seem to far fetched to me, as I read the posts in this thread!

Whoa, Glenn, easy big fella

I'm glad to have your oppinion, but lay off the crusade business. The reason I posted was to find out if I even had a right to be annoyed. I'm not looking to change someones show outright. I don't like the policy, and have already decided not to go back to this show. Being rather new to the reptile show circut I wondered if I was the only person who felt this way, thats all. I did complain to the organizers of this event, but to no avail. The policy is not well outlined to new vendors, had I known I wouldn't have driven 2hours and paid $35 for a table.

I also wouln't be so put out if they hadn't made such a big deal about limiting the number of vendors of certain types of animals.

I'm not trying to be inflamitory, just trying to get a feel for this business.

Thanks for the input
Kisha

You asked for opinions. I gave mine. If it is not in agreement with your own, well in the words of Sister Walter Phillip a nun I had in grammar school many years ago: TOUGH NOOGIES. I don't mean that to be nasty, I mean it the way the woman pretending to be a penguin used to mean it and I think that was: tough, get over it, and move on because you asked for it. She always used that in sort of 'you asked for it situations' that kids found themselves in. I have a right to my opinion, just as you have a right to have your own opinion. I do not expect you to stop posting how you feel simply because our opinions disagree. I find it quite amusing though that: the first person whose opinion disagrees with your own and you tell that person "whoa.." and to " lay off...".

My points still stand. If the show allows outside animals that are not a vendor's, then what are you gonna do, ruin it for those other people? If that was show policy, then why ruin it for others, just go to another promoter's shows from now on. If the promoter did not explain this to you, well there is an old Roman saying that covers such a situation: Caveat Emptor (Buyer Beware). In this case since you were buying/renting the table, I think, it is your responsibility to check on what you are getting for your money. Granted if the promoter tried to hide these facts from you, then that may be fraud on his part and that stinks. It also stinks if they were just too inconsiderate to let you know all of the rules, but that is only another reason that you should have checked on them. I don't blame you for not wanting to go to that promoter's shows again, but I would think you wrong to try and stop the practice of allowing in animals with the potential buyers/traders; that is my opinion.

To me, as I reread your original post and THE OTHER RESPONSES YOU RECEIVED, it all still sounds like the all too common prelude to an ensuing crusade. Sorry if you don't like that word, but that is the only one I can think of that seems to fit what I believe, in my opinion, seemed to me to be happening.



Best regards,
Glenn Bartley