Reptile Show Ethics???

I actually missed hearing it on Thanksgiving, I heard it about two days later, the day I took my son out on his first hunting trip. Good song, for sure, but I an getting off topic now, sorry.

For the life of me, I can't remember the town in MA it was in, but.... when the song was popular.... I went to see a buddy of mine who was going to school up there, and I actually ATE at "Alice's Restaurant"! It was really "far out" and "right on" for a full-fledged hippy!

....Neil

I agree with Kisha that it isn't the best thing for show promoters to allow outside animals into shows for people to sell/trade. That is what the vendors bought table-space for. And you know if you were at the Daytona show spending $500/table and Joe-Blow was allowed to wander in and out of the aisles with a bucket of animals only off of admission you would be raising hell(whether it was standard policy or not, I bet money you'd still be pissed they let that go on). However, if you knew that was their policy, so be it. As you said Glenn, "tough noogies." I have done several shows before where this was allowed and I wasn't happy about it, but I knew ahead of time this was going on and decided to take the risk anyway. The show worked out fine for me and there were fewer "off the street" people than I expected.

For a fun example though, let's say you run a show in Buttlick, AK(for example). You decide to sell tables for $50/ea for a one day show that is held monthly at the local VFW. You charge an admission fee of $2/person to get in. You allow people to bring in animals from the outside for sale/trade purposes. Your first show out, you do pretty good and sell out your 20 tables(just using round numbers here)and you have 100 people come in. Out of those 100, let's say 10 bring in animals to sell. Your vendors notice these 10 people walking around selling animals and only having to pay $2 what you paid $50 to do. Now, one of these vendors say screw this, and let's say they come in with two friends and a bunch of animals next month and pay a total of $6 admission to the show. You have just lost $44 to this vendor not buying a table. Let's say after this show, 5 more vendors see what's going on and they decide to do the same thing the next month down the line. Eventually, you will not have too many tables being bought because there is no reason to do it. At least that is my view on it.

But if it bothers you, either tell the people doing it, or tell the promoters WHEN you see it. I have no compunctions about telling someone to leave my table due to behavior, selling other animals in front, loose animals(I'll address this on the BS forum later), or whatever. I prefer NOT to resort to that, but hey, sometimes that's the breaks. Not much anyone can do after the fact. Or simply, don't attend shows where you know this goes on.

Interesting topic......here's my .02 on it.

I haven't looked on the BOI to see which show this is about, not yet anyway, but the principle should be the same regardless of the specific show and I must admit I'm in agreement with Glenn. The promoter can run the show any way they see fit. Because they allow individuals with animals in the show does not make them unethical or wrong. It simply means you don't agree with it. I just started doing a new local reptile show this summer. It's an hour's drive from my home and $45 per table. I was working with my friend to sell her litter of Bci and I was selling the handmade jewelry that I do (I didn't have any animals available for sale at the time). At this show, people are allowed to bring in animals to sell or trade. A number of the vendors will work trades or purchase these animals and sometimes others attending the show will purchase them. At the August show, a guy that ran a local pet store had brought in a few animals that he had produced and was trading for other animals that vendors had for sale. Both parties benefit from this, the vendor gets an animal that they possibly want or one they can sell; the guy who brought the animals in can trade for animals he wants for his personal collection or to diversify the stock offered in his store. In all fairness, this particular guy wasn't trying to sell to the public, he was specifically trading with the vendors. But even if he wasn't just targeting the vendors, the show's policies allow him to do this. Trades were an integral part of this hobby in years past, it wasn't all about producing animals for profit. I'm not saying it isn't good to make a profit, just that some of the older ideas aren't inherently bad. If you are an individual that happened to produce a few cbb animals, it is another avenue for expanding your collection and making a few dollars off of the animals you produced. From the guy I mentioned, I got a great little coastal carpet python - an animal I had wanted for some time - in trade for one of my friend's babies and she traded another baby Bci for a hatchling retic - an animal she had wanted for some time. We all won out in the deal. She and I got two animals we wanted and this guy got a pair of exceptional boa babies to either sell or raise to breed.

Let's look at this from another viewpoint. As I mentioned above, I make handcrafted jewelry. It's strictly a hobby and I only do a few local craft shows every year. The booth fees range from $25 to $75 per space and some of these shows are an hour or more away from my home in just the drive time. There are a number of people who make and sell jewelry of all types. Some shows have more jewelry than others. Most of the shows I do have rules governing the types of crafts sold - usually that they have to be handmade, not purchased, and things of that nature. However, some shows do not require that the crafts sold are handmade and will allow vendors to sell products they purchased wholesale from a manufacturer. Does it bother me when I'm placed next to a table selling manufactured necklaces for a portion of the cost it takes to produce mine? Sure it does because I'm there to make a profit. Is there anything I can do about it? Not really. The promoter of the show allows it. So when a potential customer asks why the necklaces (or whatever) next to me are so much cheaper than what I am offering, I explain that I design and make each piece myself and my prices are based on the cost of the materials, the quality of the components and my time. Sometimes I make the sale, sometimes I don't. The point is, I provide quality and service to my customers, and I get a number of repeat sales. The table next to me might make the sale for the person looking for a bargain, but those looking for quality and a personal touch purchase from me. It's all in how you sell yourself and your product.

Dianne

I take exception to the inference that the Irba shows are somehow better because of their rules. You are comparing apples and oranges. You are comparing a $3 entry fee and $35 table fee to a show with $125 tables. That is a poor comparison. When you say "this part of the country" I feel a history lesson is in order. The first reptile shows in the country were put on by The Michigan Society of Herpetologists. The first for profit show was the Columbus, Ohio show. The first exotic pet and reptile exclusive pet shops were here in Michigan. Many of the largest and most well respected people in this industry either live in this part of the country or did. I do not think you intended to be derrogotory in your initial post, but you do need to understand that you come accross that way. Maybe you prefered being out west and are not happy with living in this more eastern part of the country. I would say that you are allowing that to taint your opinion of the herp industry here.

I have been a vendor at over 1000 reptile shows in over 30 cities in, I believe 15 or 16 states all over the country. I have seen good and bad all over. If you want to see a super clean CB only show that is in Michigan, that does not allow animals in from the public I would like to personally invite you to attend my next annual show in November 2003. This is not at all a plug for my show as very few people who don't know about it already will read this. I just want you to know that they exist. I would welcome you as a vendor or an attendee. One thing you need to keep in mind in the future is what kind of show you are attending. You can't fault a show promoter because you assumed that the Ohio show would be just like the Irba show. The Ohio show has existed since long before you had enough CB herps or vendors to even do a show. Evan Stahl

I come from the "south west" too, being southern california. I dislike the fact that the IRBA shows do NOT allow people to come in with live animals for trading. It would be a good possible business opprotunity for trading. But I do agree that they should not be able to SELL their animals, if anybody from the "street" is caught advertising or trying to sell anything, they should be thrown out. Simply for trading is a good idea.

Kisha,

As a *VENDOR* at the I.R.B.A. Shows throughout the state of Calif for the last 8 years, I feel it is incumbant upon me to add my *OPINION* here.

First of all, Glen Bartley, your opinions, though they are your own, and I respect them as that, arelibelous, and you make every attemp to LABEL Kishas actions as a"typical case of "I gotta be in control Liberalism"

Thats a crock and you know it.

If a vendow(Me for instance) plunks down hard earned money to rent a table at a show with the expressed purpose of trying to showcase or sell his/her wres, then WHY should somebody be admitted to said show and allowed to market their WARES or items for sale for virtually NOTHING?

If the show itself doesnt openly discourage this practice, either due to arcane thinking practices or because they want to make it more of a "swapmeet" of reptiles,, then that needs to be stated UP FRONT in writing to EVERY vendor BEFORE they put out money and sign on the dotted line. Then the vendor can do one of two things:

a) Choose NOT to exhibit their animals at that show, afraid of cross contamination, theft(If people arewalking around with animals not enclosed HOW do you KNOW that they havent come off of another vendors table, stolen?) or just dismayed that the BUYING PUBLIC is being allowed to purchase reptiles from people that dont even have enough VESTED INTEREST in this whole thing to even rent a table at a pultry $50 for the weekend(Pleazzee....anyone that cant put up $50 to rent a table is either to cheap or focused on ONLY profit)

OR

b) complain to the promoter that this show, allthough good, could be SOO much better if people were not allowed to just bring their animals in and walk around with them nor properly enclosed.

Sound to me GLENN, that Kisha was trying to improve the quality of the show she WANTED to exhibit in. And it also sounds GLENN, like she was voicing her *OPINION* something you did Quite freely in your earlier posts. Would you deny here this right, while maintsining the need for it yourself?

Kisha, the shows where you are at are run diffrently than the I.R.B.A. shows here. The IRBA shows here are well run affairs, with security, a staff availble for the load in, raffles,drawings, prizes.
Try and make the best you can with what you have to work with, and if you dont feel comfortable selling at those shows then dont bang your head against the wall, sell over the internet, it works much better generally speaking and you never have to expose your beloved animals to diseases and deal with price cutting mobile deal makers. Better yet....move back here *PRONTO*!lol
and as for the hecklers...IGNORE them, in the grandf scheme of things they are as insignificant and unreal as a San Diego Charger fieldgoal!!

Take care,
Fred Albury

AZTEC REPTILES

GO RAIDERS!!!!!!!!!!!

If the show itself doesnt openly discourage this practice, either due to arcane thinking practices or because they want to make it more of a "swapmeet" of reptiles,, then that needs to be stated UP FRONT in writing to EVERY vendor BEFORE they put out money and sign on the dotted line.

Simply put Fred, it was and is to every single vendor.

Where exactly is it put forth in writing?? The only place I saw anything about outside animals was on the website, which lists animals for SALE OR TRADE- it says nothing about the public being allowed to come in and sell their animals. Or mabey I didn't read enough into the site. Not knowing any better I thought that you had to become a vendor at this show inorder to sell animals there. I guess I was wrong, lesson learned.

Kisha

Fred,

I have come to respect you over the years I've spent reading your posts and am sorely disappointed with the implications of this statement in your post:

the shows where you are at are run diffrently than the I.R.B.A. shows here. The IRBA shows here are well run affairs, with security, a staff availble for the load in, raffles,drawings, prizes.

This reads with the implication that the shows in this section of the country are NOT "well run affairs, with security, a staff availble for the load in, raffles,drawings, prizes", when in fact, they are. I've not been to the Ohio show but I've been to a majority of the shows in Maryland and Virginia and plan to start attending more of those in North Carolina and Pennsylvania next season. Most of those shows do have raffles, door prizes, etc. - though I personally don't see how that qualifies if the show is good or not. Quality of the show should depend on the quality of the animals and the vendors at that show and nothing else IMO.

Also, the majority of the shows around here don't permit outside animals with attendees for any reason though there are a couple of the shows that do permit outside animals for trade purposes. As for the chance for spreading disease and parasites, those things can just as easily come from another table as they can with someone walking through the door with an animal. If anyone thinks that just because someone pays for a table that it means their animals are clean, they are sadly mistaken. The Fredericksburg show where I was a vendor has a very reputable herp vet go around to each table and inspect the animals. Policy stands that anything that is less than satisfactory is removed from the table. That is the general practice at every show I attend in this area. Am I naive enough to think that means all the animals are 100% healthy? Heck no. Everything I purchase or trade for still gets quarantined and any problems checked by a qualified herp vet.

On a final note, whether it's one of my craft shows or a herp show where I intend to be a vendor, I go to the show first before ever signing up for a table. I look around to see how the show is presented to the public and what goes on at the show. Where possible, I speak with other vendors. This is especially true of the herp shows because I have the full intention of selling any animals I produce at these. While I may not fully research a craft show, one where my animals will be is an entirely different matter. There is simply the matter of taking personal responsibility for your choices. If you don't check the show out previously and purchase a table on blind faith, you get what you get. If you attend first and don't like the way the show is run, don't participate as a vendor. If the Ohio show is growing more popular and larger, obviously there are others who want that type of show and people regularly return both as vendors and attendees. I personally feel it is a vendor's responsibility to look into and understand how the show is run prior to participating in it. I can't imagine the promoters have the time to go through every detail with every vendor or potential vendor - it just isn't practical.

Just my .03 worth.
Dianne