Albino Ball Python Died!!

Just because the breeder is a big name and has apparent backers on this forum does not give the right for this thread to be stopped.

It has nothing to do with backers of Kevins, and everything to do with the fact that over 4 months has passed and I still do not see the report from the vet stating it was a genetic defect, gout or even that the snake was too young to be released from the breeder.

Terese,

I do agree with most of what you said, this was initially brought up to find out if any other occurances like this had happened with someone else. It at first got feedback from both sides.
However, and this is where I disagree, once NERD was introduced people such as evansnakes started doing so heavy duty backpeddling. And since then the thread has gotten somewhat dirty to say the least.
All to many times I see threads that die off with no answer. I would like this one to get back on focus and see something. Adam does need to put what he has on the table. If there are people out there, they need to come forward. And I believe NERD should answer some questions....like..... when was the snake born? It doesnt take a rocket scientist me to look on top and see who is on line or go to whos online and see just how often NERD is reading this instead of tending to his business, which I might add is a lot.
One thing I think you may be able to agree with me on is this....
if in fact there is some factual evidence or questions that need to be answered or people to come forward, do it now. No games, just lay it out on the table.
Leave the mud slinging out of it and let the people who need to talk about this talk.

Rozann Lamont

Rozann,

As staunch as NERD's reputation is, I don't think that's the cause for the "backpeddling" as you put it. I think that Kevin made some statements that caused people to question the statements that Adam made. Period.

I've spent *hours* reading threads on the BOI and the old BOI, and I have to tell you that I don't see that anyone's reputation alone will cause the members of Fauna to let them have a pass if an issue arises.

Well, even though I've only ever owned 1 ball python in my life, I feel like adding 2 cents.

I think Evan hit the nail on the head when talking about the genetics issue being grey--that it is really too early in the game to know about what genes may prove to weak vs others.

My take is that , arent we all taking this chance anytime we buy any animal when it comes to genetics--but especially any special morph. It is my understanding that many types of specialty morphs would never live in the wild, and may in fact be "naturally" weaker, or weakened due to some level of line breeding. Besides, any animal can have a genetic "issue" without the breeder knowing it or the parents ever showing any signs--that is just the nature of genetics.

Even if this albino strain did prove to have a genetic issue, I do not feel that NERD would be at fault unless they knew about it prior to it being sold. It would certainly be interesting to find out if all albinos from this clutch died--but it does not appear that that happened. Even if it did, isnt that just the chance we take with new morphs? It is like gambling. It is also why I'm reluctant to drop a ton of money on any specialty morph of any species.
In fact, if I were to buy a special morph, I would probably expect it to be less hardy than a "normal" and take extra precautions.

Just my take after reading all this.

Dana

Rob,

I believe at the beginning when no names where being mentioned there were no accusations, just a search or a quest, if I may use that word.
I consider you a upstanding seller as I have bought from you and understand what you are saying. I just would like to see something, whether it be Adam is right or wrong, and I dont know him. But as he started this, I think it should be addressed and answered, by HIM as well.
I will concede that if he does not come up with something or answers are not met then it should indeed go down into BOI cyber, but then what am I left with or other readers? Not to trust either party because Adam did not give vital info and Nerd did not answer important questions? See what I am saying? I cannot go on blind faith or for that matter sole reputation. I went on reputation once and it didn't turn out well.

Rozann Lamont

Stardust is correct about one main issue, several of us have asked the hatch date of Kevin, and Kevin has to have seen that several times as we can see he is online. He is online right now and reading this thread..... SO Kevin, may we please have the hatch date on this python?

This is important to a lot of us.

I believe at the beginning when no names where being mentioned there were no accusations, just a search or a quest, if I may use that word.

I agree with you.....because on the surface that is what it seemed. But something was digging up at me from the inside. That is why I stayed away from the thread for so long. I did not know what to make of what I was feeling in the guts.

So I saw what NERD wrote.
That is when it was finally made clear what I was feeling. He basically stated what was eating me up. That is when I finally decided to look closely...REAL CLOSELY
Was this search/quest for an answer or was this search/quest for money. take a look at this one paragraph

I ask that you please keep this thread on topic and if you feel the need to address other issues please either start a new thread or email me. I would like to keep this free of insinuations, insults, threats and allegations. I’m doing nothing more then looking for facts and have done my best to state facts as opposed to what I think. In the cases I have stated what my thoughts were I’ve tried to look at them with an open mind and think about the options as opposed to what I think. I’m also not sure what if anything is due to me, as the animal did not die of a car issue but a genetic one. I don’t have any issue with loosing the money I have. I do however have an issue with getting such a high dollar snake so quickly out of the egg and with the breeders seeming unwillingness to work with me. I also have an issue with other people buying animals the may be dying from the same thing if in fact that turns out to be a valid concern

1. he says no insinuations. But states that his animal died of genetics.
2. he also insinuates that other peoples animals might be dying from the same thing.
3. Then he says he has a problem with getting animals so freshly out of the egg. Well he did not get it. His "knowledgable partenr" did.
4. He says he does not mind the money. But mentions money due him. And in another paragraph he mentions a 65/35 split. (sounds like info gathering to me)


questions
1. Who brought it to your attention that the snake was born the same month as the show (Kevin or your very knowledgeable friend)?
2. What happened to the other "day and a half" of delivery of your snake?
3. In your four months of study....What other "breeder" have you found that has had trouble with snakes from Nerd?
4. Why did you wait four months after death. six months after purchase to complain?
5. Can we see the necropsy report?
6. can we see the genetics report?
7. can you illuminate these "rumors" about Nerd? (anything concrete or is it just the competition crying about prices?)




as far as the hatch date. I think we can all conclude it was born the same month of the show. (This part I do fault him for) but there is nothing I can do about it. His breeding practices differs from mine. It could explain why he is more successul than I am...or it might not have even anything to do with anything.

as far as the hatch date. I think we can all conclude it was born the same month of the show. (This part I do fault him for) but there is nothing I can do about it. His breeding practices differs from mine. It could explain why he is more successul than I am...or it might not have even anything to do with anything.

How can you say that last line? Every care info sheet or breeder site I have seen advise against this and why, granted you say that your practice is different, I am grateful for that.

If this baby was hatched the same month and the show was on the 17th to 18th, this baby was days old when transported and on display at the show, not two months as was alluded to in that attempt to answer.

How very sad, no matter what transpired after that, or who posted what for whatever reason, that was the start of this baby's demise and that is the fault of the breeder/seller. What could possibly modivate someone to do that? I can only think of one reason and its not the well being of the animal!

Since he chooses not to answer and address this question that has appeared many times and he has seen it, I think we all have the answer as where the first liability is and he seems to know that too.

Every care info sheet or breeder site I have seen advise against this and why, granted you say that your practice is different, I am grateful for that.

Cheri, can you provide links that show this? I am genuinely curious. Everything that I've read has said that the animal should be eating, drinking, and had at least one successful shed before being sold, but has not listed an age.

Since the age of this animal has become such a big issue, and there is so much conflicting information, I have been looking for strong reference information, and would like to know your sources.

If I was spending $2500 on a snake I would have certainly made sure that I "knew" of its genetics before plopping any money down. I'd do that with a $35 corn snake because even if I wasn't keeping it I know that most people that would be in the market to buy it from me would want that information. Even if the animal is somewhat inbred I would expect the buyer to be responsible for asking for the genetics. When dealing with an obvious mutation that is currently extremely valueable it is all the more important to ask. Not asking is the buyers fault not the sellers fault. As far as its age goes, when you are looking at that time of year at a small snake isn't it reasonable to ask then about the hatch/birth date? If it truly was as young as it apparently is then the umbilical slit should still be quite evident and most people can look at that and tell if the animal is really, really young. I'm only an ametuer so it really sounds amazing to me that a "professional" would be in here talking like this. I do think that
a lot of sellers would be helping themselves greatly if they backed up their products a little more but ultimately I think this is a case of someone taking a shot where the risks were known, and it didn't work out like they hoped. I don't see this as a sellers problem. I think it is appropriate for the seller to provide any age and lineage information asked for by the buyer but thats the end of it. Adam, it seems like you are fishing here and trying to make it look like the seller is reponsble for the lack of investigation on the buyers part.
This is of course, just the unedumucated opinion of an ametuer.