|
|
PAGE
11:40:04
Welcome back. I'm Susan Page of USA Today sitting in for Diane Rehm. With us on the phone from Las Vegas is Zuzana Kukol, president and co-founder of Responsible Exotic Animal Ownership, REXANO. And with me here in the studio, Wayne Pacelle, president and CEO of the Humane Society of the United States, and Andrew Wyatt, president of the United States Association of Reptile Keepers.
[Joey] Remember Zuzana? She's the one that was cut off when she wasn't finished to allow Wayne to have the floor so he could make unsubstantiated claims and refuse the others a chance to respond.
PAGE
11:40:29
We've been talking about the practice of exotic pets across the country. Before the break, Wayne had made a criticism of groups like yours, Andrew, saying that you don't spend money on rescuing animals, exotic animals, who find themselves in perilous circumstances after being someone's pet. What would you say to him?
WYATT
11:40:46
Well, I would say that Wayne is misinformed. I think he's not aware of what's going on out there. The reality of it is, there was a recent opinion poll by the Opinion Research Corp. that 71 percent of Americans believe that HSUS is an umbrella organization for Humane Societies and pet shelters around the country. The reality is they spend...
[Joey] NON SEQUITUR ANDREW!!!!! This is your chance to talk up the hobby. Mention the many rescues out there. The Burmese Python Initiative could be mentioned here. Less than 2 weeks from the ban and already 150K collected in order to help soon to be displaced animals. Where were you on this one? And of all things to bring up? The "Nuh-uh you're wrong" argument didn't work when you were a child. It won't work as an adult. Come on.
PACELLE
11:41:10
Yeah, done by -- done by...
WYATT
11:41:11
...less than--
PACELLE
11:41:12
...a group that's...
WYATT
11:41:12
They spend...
PACELLE
11:41:13
...it's attack our position.
WYATT
11:41:13
...they spend less than one percent, about one-half of one percent on actual shelters.
PAGE
11:41:19
But -- but Wayne…
WYATT
11:41:20
The reality of it is...
PACELLE
11:41:20
That's wrong, Andrew. Andrew, that's completely wrong, false.
WYATT
11:41:21
Let me -- let me go back to...
PACELLE
11:41:23
That's completely false, Andrew.
PAGE
11:41:25
Now...
PACELLE
11:41:25
Andrew, you know what the point is?
WYATT
11:41:26
Am I going to be allowed to speak?
PAGE
11:41:28
Here I...
PACELLE
11:41:28
Yeah, no, you're making a ridiculous charge. You're making a false charge. What this Center for Consumer Freedom with Rick Berman...
WYATT
11:41:34
This is the Opinion Research Corporation.
PACELLE
11:41:35
Yeah, but hired by Rick Berman who attacks anti-smoking groups and Mothers Against Drunk Driving is that's the money we give to other organizations as a grant. We take care of our own animals, Andrew. I'll be happy to show you around Black Beauty Ranch where we spend a couple million dollars a year. I'll take you to the largest wildlife rehab center in the United States which is in Broward County that we run. It's not an issue of what we give to others. We do our own work. We don't have to give grants to other organizations in order to...
[Joey] Andrew, you just were schooled. If this is true you should have known that going in. If this is false you should have known the backing of that group previous to this encounter so you could defend it better. Minus 1 point for Andrew.
WYATT
11:42:02
The fact is...
PAGE
11:42:02
And, excuse me, I would just say that this show is not about...
PACELLE
11:42:05
Yeah.
PAGE
11:42:05
...the Humane Society. It's about the keeping of exotic pets and what it means for all of us, for ecology, for pet owners, for those who might be concerned about it. So I think this is not an issue that we want to...
WYATT
11:42:15
Well, I...
PAGE
11:42:15
...explore in this hour.
[Joey] How dare you speak poorly of the Humane Society. I mean Humane is in their name. Seems legit. Moderator is a clown. Questioning the intent of the HSUS is a valid point in this discussion. They're championing the legislation. I find it a fair inquiry to figure out why. But I'm not the biased clown hosing the show. I'm the biased keeper listening.
WYATT
11:42:17
Okay. There is a point though back to the money that is being put back into animal welfare. The recent rule making by U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service that would add four constricting snakes to the injurious wildlife list of the Lacey Act creates a situation where hundreds of thousands, if not millions of animals could be displaced if someone had to leave the state that they live in. Because then they would become Lacey Act felons if they transfer them across state lines.
WYATT
11:42:46
So there's an initiative out there called the Burmese Python Initiative. It's at savetheburms.org where we've raised $150,000 to be able to house and care for these animals so that they don't end up being euthanized or out on the streets or whatever, so that they can have a safe place to go and be re-homed. And I would challenge Wayne to donate some money to the...
PACELLE
11:43:12
Yeah, we're gonna...
WYATT
11:43:14
...to the Burmese Python Initiative.
PACELLE
11:43:15
...we're gonna clean up the mess that you guys have created by blocking the laws, that you've created so much cruelty. You've created such ecological havoc causing our nation millions and millions of tens of millions of dollars because of your selfish pursuit...
[Joey] So you can't speak bad about HSUS, but feel free to attack the reptile community. I heard they're all a bunch of heathens too. Get my torch and pitchfork. We're having a good old fashioned witch hunt!
WYATT
11:43:28
You can't document any of that.
[Joey] Again with the "nuh-uh" argument. We need more. Remember you're representing all the reptile community right now like it or not.
PACELLE
11:43:29
...of private ownership of animals that do not belong in our homes. Lions, tigers, chimpanzees, Burmese pythons, alligators belong in the wild. And they belong in accredited zoos and in reputable sanctuaries. And if we all spend our money chasing all of these animals that are getting out there because of a series of irresponsible actions of exotic animal owners, we'll all go bankrupt. We need front end policies to prevent these animals from getting out to begin with.
[Joey] Opinion! This is all opinion. Wayne doesn't think they belong in our homes. Apparently many disagree. Who is he that he should make decisions for other responsible adults. I don't tell him what car to drive (I'm guessing it is a Prius), I don't tell him where to eat (is there fast food tofu?) or what music to listen too (I'm going to assume Kenny G?). Why should he tell me what animals are acceptable for me to own and which aren't? How much money honestly is spent on pythons? How much on horses? Cats? Now a real problem. How much money is spent on paying the bills of those that are too lazy to take care of themselves. I'm not talking those honestly in need of assistance, but those that are milking the system.
[Joey] Pythons may pale in comparison if you look at the real problems. I doubt the multiple trillions of dollars in debt that we've built up over the last few years can be attributed to pythons. How about we look at the issues in perspective? The everglades is a local problem. We have alligator hunts. Why not feral cat hunts? Come on HSUS. They're a big problem. Probably the biggest in the everglades. How come I don't see any posters demonizing cats. You can even stage one like the Burmese python picture. Have a small gator in a cat's mouth. Or a heron chick. There is an animal that is costing money. Throughout the US not just in the everglades.
PAGE
11:43:58
Now, we've had several emailers send in suggestions when it comes to trying to strike some kind of balance in this debate. Here's one from Nick who writes us in Tampa. He says, "Why do advocates of restricting exotic animal ownership come down to ending individual's rights to own them? Why don't restriction advocates put forth individual education and training efforts in order for individuals to own them?" And a similar point from Caroline who writes us from Dallas. She says, "You have to pass a test to get a driver's license. Why not license dangerous animal ownership?" What do you think about that idea, Wayne?
PACELLE
11:44:30
I think it's ludicrous, Susan. How -- our government doesn't have money to be training and testing people, instead of a whole regulatory system. We don't regulate dog fights. We don't regulate cock fights. There are certain behaviors that we judge to be outside the bounds of the norms of a society. These are wild animals. Burmese pythons belong in Burma, Myanmar and other parts of Southeast Asia. Reticulated pythons belong in their native habitats. Tigers belong in India or China, not in people's homes in Lisbon, Ohio.
[Joey] Congratulations. Keeping a koi in your pond is equivalent to dog and cock fighting. Bet you didn't think of that when you spent hundreds of dollars on a pond, filters, plants, etc. Should have saved money and bought some particle board and made a cock fighting ring. Oops. Once again he has put all animal keepers into the same category as dog fighters. There isn't much "wild" left for tigers. I address this later, but I'll mention it here too.
PAGE
11:45:03
Are there regulations that stop short of banning ownership of exotic pets that do something to address this issue in a way that you think makes sense?
PACELLE
11:45:11
I don't think that it makes sense to regulate keeping dangerous wild animals as pets. There are no good outcomes for these animals. Most people get them very naively. Andrew may be an expert keeper. If he is, he is one of very few people who are experts. A lot of people get these animals impulsively.
WYATT
11:45:30
Wayne paints with a broad brush.
[Joey] You know at a reptile show a response like this would be appreciated. It is very true. If you were to elaborate on this now, you would have gained some credibility. Instead this looks like the bitter response of someone that is getting their backside handed to them. I have nothing against you Andrew, but you're losing this one.
PACELLE
11:45:30
They get them -- they get them -- they get them young. They get them -- do you have any data to show that people are -- I can tell you, Andrew, you...
WYATT
11:45:37
I can't prove a negative, no, Wayne.
PACELLE
11:45:38
...you may not know because we deal with the discards of people who are involved in your industry all the time. The Humane community has thousands and thousands of rescue groups that exist because people make the wrong decisions with animals.
[Joey] Cops and clean up crews deal with the boneheads that drive down the highway all the time. Responsible people should not be punished for the mistakes of a few. You say you deal with the mess of people like Andrew. How many snakes has Andrew abandoned? I'm guessing zero. That means you're NOT cleaning up after people like him. You're cleaning up after the irresponsible ones. By choice I might add. It is a shame some are irresponsible, but the entire hobby shouldn't be held responsible for a few bad keepers. Now to put things into perspective again. Go to any shelter. Tell me how many reptiles are there in comparison to cats. You're "they're costing so much money" argument is invalid Wayne. If it was a cost issue cats and dogs would be your primary concern. Since they're not, one can only assume you hate snakes, or you have found an easier target since most Americans still harbor a fear for things they don't understand (i.e., snakes, exotic cats, etc.)
WYATT
11:45:53
People make the wrong decisions with children, automobiles and their pets too. And you taking the worst case scenarios...
PACELLE
11:45:58
That's why we have child abuse laws. That's why we have child abuse laws.
[Joey] We have animal abuse laws too. A comparison would be to ban children to all but accredited parents. Or ban specific automobiles to all but those who are accredited. We have traffic laws to help keep people safe. Driving at 100 miles an hour in a school zone is dangerous. We have child abuse laws to keep kids safe. A seven year old child shouldn't be putting in 16 hour work days. We have animal abuse laws to keep animals from being neglected. We already have those laws on place Wayne. You're calling for more than just laws to protect the animals, children, or pedestrians. You're calling for the inability to drive, to have kids, or to own exotics. There is a difference. I'm sure Andrew will pick up on this and not respond with an adage he already used ineffectively early. Let's see what he does.
WYATT
11:46:00
...and painting with a broad brush to try and characterize everyone as being...
[Joey] Crap. Too late to elaborate on this. Hit him on the child abuse things……..Please Andrew? You're not going to throw in the towel are you? He had a crappy analogy. You could have taken this right here.
PACELLE
11:46:05
No.
WYATT
11:46:05
...the worst case scenario.
PACELLE
11:46:06
No, I'm not saying the worst case.
PAGE
11:46:06
I'd like to -- I'd like to get Zuzana in on this conversation. Zuzana, I'm wondering, as an advocate for exotic pet ownership, are there restrictions and regulations that go short of a ban that you think would make sense? Or do you think this is an area that should basically be just left to individuals deciding for themselves?
[Joey] Oh really. you cut her off nearly 25 minutes ago and now you want her to speak. Great moderation. I'm sure those 25 minutes were so meaningful to her. I'm sure she felt a great part of the conversation. She had a number of good things to say. If she were allowed to speak more I wonder if the outcome would have been better for the exotic pet trade. And worse for Wayne and NPR.
KUKOL
11:46:26
Right now, it's too late because most of the communities already have some regulations. And the local level, even the state, does have regulations. But I would like to address Wayne's comment that these animals should be in the wild. First of all, the wild is disappearing. Even many animals in U.S.A. that venture into human habitat, just like cougars, they need to be killed because there is no place to take them back. You cannot just dump cougar in other cougar's territory.
[Joey] Nice point again. Point for Zuzana! Remember the pet trade is only a minor offender in taking animals from their wild habitat. Humans moving in is the biggest threat. We're destroying this nebulous "wild" Wayne keeps talking about. I wonder what Wayne thinks happens to these "wild" animals when they meet a human in their natural habitat. Need I remind readers of the skin and meat trade? How about silly superstitions about snakes being evil. I've been lucky enough to travel to a number of less developed countries. Even the nice snakes don't stand much a chance when a human finds them. Many meet the unpleasant end of a bush knife (machete for those outside the old world tropics).
Which end result is not only better for the animal but the species as a whole? The sharp end of a knife/shovel/any other implement used to dispatch a snake, or a life in captivity being watched over by one of the hundreds of thousands of responsible keepers throughout the US.
KUKOL
11:46:54
The other thing he said was that these animals should be in accredited zoos and sanctuaries. It's interesting to point out in the last few fatal attacks by elephants and big cats happen in accredited sanctuary in Tennessee and in zoos. It was the jaguar in Colorado and tiger in San Francisco. What's interesting about the San Francisco incident, there was one tiger that got loose and it killed a visitor and injured two more visitors.
[Joey] Oh crap. Zuzana is making a very valid point. Quickly you must cut her off so that she doesn't sway any of your intelligent listeners. Though from those calling in I doubt many would have lasted this long. I'm surprised I have.
PAGE
11:47:26
But, Zuzana...
[Joey] She's getting to a point that is pertinent to this conversation. Let her speak. Clown.
KUKOL
11:47:27
The zoo personnel...
PAGE
11:47:27
...to go back to the -- could you go back to the question I asked you? Are there regulations that you think make sense that would help strike some kinda balance, either on the kinds of animals that can be owned or the way in which they need to be kept? Or do you think this is really for you an issue in which you think no regulations are appropriate?
KUKOL
11:47:47
I believe in federal regulation when it comes to caging and perimeter fence. However, what's happening now, when there is regulational bans proposed, it exempts the aviaries and zoos and sanctuaries and bans everybody else, which is not fair. I think the law should apply equally. I believe in federal regulation, but it should apply equally. There should not be exemptions because where I was going with this, the last few fatal incidents occurred in facilities that are usually exempt from these bans, which makes no sense.
[Joey] So responsible keepers are actually more responsible than zoos. Perhaps that is why we have so much better success when it comes to breeding these animals. We're more interested in keeping them alive and not throwing them in a display to be yelled at by thousands of people each day. Nice quiet sanctuary or crappy zoo. Have you been to northern Utah? The Hogle zoo? Animals in boxes. Reptiles in very poor caging. They should hire somebody with an ounce of knowledge in herpetoculture. They may be surprised to realize what we as hobbyists have learned over the last four decades.
PAGE
11:48:16
Andrew, here's a tweet that we got with a question directed for you from Steven. He tweets, "If nine of ten python succumb to a Florida cold snap, how are the glades still full of pythons?" Why is this still a problem if they die with a cold snap?
[Joey] Nice. Here is where Andrew takes the bull by the horns and takes command of the debate. Here he can use the knowledge gained by actual biologists. Not posers at the USGS. Here is where he can really let his passion come out and show that the problem has been sensationalized by people like Wayne of HSUS, Animal Planet, PETA, and other organizations…..
WYATT
11:48:30
According to Scott Harden at Florida Fish and Wildlife, currently their state wildlife organization is estimating that over the last two years, the cold winters, that as much as 80 to 90 percent of the pythons have actually succumbed to the cold. But back to the framework of being able to keep these animals responsibly, USR promotes a set of best management practices in regards to this animal. We've passed our best management practices into law. In fact, the HSUS didn't even oppose us when we passed this into law in other states. And it's -- and states are looking at it now.
[Joey] I was expecting a lion's roar but the meow was sufficient. Let's see what Wayne has to say in order to keep the conversation on topic. If it strays I'm sure the moderator will step in…….
PACELLE
11:49:16
Do you support chimps and big cats in the pet trade?
[Joey] What? That is your response? He mentions that the whole backing for your ban is falling (i.e., literally dying) and you come back with that? I'm sure Andrew won't take the bait and he'll keep it on course. Keep it to the pythons…..They're your area……Pythons dying in the Florida….Come on Andrew….Don't let us down.
WYATT
11:49:20
My expertise is in reptiles. I haven't...
[Joey] You're losing ground. Get back to the dying pythons……..
PACELLE
11:49:23
You don't need expertise to make a judgment about whether people should be permitted to have a tiger in their home.
[Joey] And you're going to take it hook line and sinker. And another foot in the grave for Andrew.
WYATT
11:49:31
If they're qualified and their responsible and they have the resources to be able to responsibly work with these animals, I don't see why not. But that's really -- that's not...
[Joey] Don't doubt yourself at the end. It negates your entire statement. The last response started out well, petered off toward the last half, and then completely said nothing toward the end.
PACELLE
11:49:43
And who determines that?
[Joey] Oh oh oh! Pick me! Pick me! Hobbyists. It is our responsibility to police our own hobby. Don't sell to boneheads. Help keep those less qualified from owning these animals. Snakes aren't fashion accessories. They aren't status symbols. Let the general public know why we love these animals and we won't look so strange to them. Or do this…….
WYATT
11:49:43
...I'm not an expert on that.
[Joey] …..Yes you are according to NPR and USARK! You're been labeled as the mouthpiece of the reptile hobby. Say something! Get Jeff Dunham in there! He'll mess with levers and get you to say something. Anything!
PACELLE
11:49:44
Who determines that?
[Joey] Seriously pick me! I know. Us. The Public. Not politicians. They have enough to worry about. We as responsible and free Americans know that our freedom requires responsibility and comes with consequences. If we want to keep our hobby we as hobbyists are responsible for our actions. We need to educate the public. Both the reptile/exotic animal owning and exotic fearing public. Keepers need to know how to handle and house these animals. If we're going to produce them we need to do all we can to ensure they go to good homes. Not just the high bidder. Education. Education. Education. Not legislation. You can't force someone not to be stupid, but by policing ourselves we can sure weed out a number of them. Don't sell dangerous animals to minors, rookies, etc. If you want a larger exotic, get training from those with experience. Many of us have been doing this for years, and we love to share our passion with others. That way you can learn in a safe environment. Move over Andrew. I got this.
WYATT
11:49:45
I don't know. Like I said, I'm not part of the policy nuts and bolts on that.
[Joey] You're a lot more outgoing at the reptile shows. But you're preaching to the choir out there. We know that the bans suck. We know why. You're supposed to represent us and tell others why. USARK is a good first step, but you can't do it alone. This debate shows that all too painfully.
PACELLE
11:49:48
This is the problem, Susan, is that there is no regulatory authority to inspect everyone's private home. You're talking about tens of thousands of people who have these animals. We don't have government inspectors at the ready who can start checking cage size and do testing to make sure that people are responsible. We need to make broad rules in society. And the rule is that domesticated animals belong in our lives and in our homes, but wild animals don't. Except if they're a refugee or a castoff, then we have facilities like sanctuaries and zoos that are accredited, that can provide professional support to do the best that you can within a captive setting.
WYATT
11:50:28
Well, you can...
PAGE
11:50:28
Let's go to Cameron. He's calling us from Portland, Maine, that's been holding on. Cameron, thank you for being so patient.
[Joey] Heaven forbid you let Andrew or Zuzana respond to Wayne's claims. See a pattern here. Wayne attacks the pet industry and before any of the representatives from the pet industry are allowed to speak we take a commercial break or go to a caller. This isn't a debate. It is a firing squad.
CAMERON
11:50:35
Hey, thanks for taking my call, love the show. I just had a comment mostly concerning invasive side of this, is that this problem extends beyond the terrestrial realm. Because there are people that collect exotic animals for aquariums as well. And they'll collect fish from the Pacific Ocean and they'll have their aquarium in Florida. And whatever happens, maybe a hurricane, they just let them loose. They end up in the water. They end up in the Caribbean. And you don't know what's gonna happen with an invasive species.
CAMERON
11:51:04
So now just give an example, there's this Flying Fish. And basically, the Flying Fish is in the Caribbean. It's already made its way up to Bermuda and it's devastating local fish populations because it has evolved in Pacific Ocean over millions of years. And these (word?) don't know what to do with it, so it's an invasive problem. That's my main concern.
[Joey] Wait a minute Cameron. Don't give out that much info. Wayne is banking of the ignoramuses not realizing that exotics also include the fish trade. you'll ruin everything. Shhhhh!
PAGE
11:51:26
All right, Cameron. Thanks so much for your call. Is this something -- an area you work in yourself?
CAMERON
11:51:31
Well, I'm a graduate student in marine science, but this is not my area of expertise, so...
[Joey] Translation: "So no….it isn't my field, but my friend told me they're really really bad. Really I'm just a token caller to show how evil the pet trade is. If you get a minute, check out my new line of hemp sandals. I made them myself using a pattern taught to me by a traveling hippie I met at the occupy rally."
PAGE
11:51:35
All right. Well, Cameron, thanks so much for giving us a call.
CAMERON
11:51:39
Thank you. Bye.
PACELLE
11:51:39
Well, I was just -- you know, I think here, Susan, what we've got a balancing issue. I mean, REXANO which is a private property rights group and Andrew's organization, you know, fight regulations. They say that their personal liberty is the paramount issue. We're saying that there are a much larger set of issues at work and that the protection of our environment, animal welfare, public safety, cost to the public should be factored in, and that when you take a look at the broader issue, there's just no compelling reason to continue to do this.
[Joey] And compelling argument to stop. Once again how many people have been killed by another person's exotic pet outside of an accredited zoo or sanctuary. An exotic animal keeper takes the risk upon acquiring the animal. Their neighbor isn't in too much danger. Contrast that with a poorly behaved dog that is allowed to run loose in the back yard. I remember the damage our neighbors dog did when it dug under our fence. Not their fence, our fence. I don't remember ever hearing about a Burmese python going down the street and biting a kid as he rode by on his BMX. You're argument is invalid. Public safety is not your purpose. Your purpose is a personal belief that people shouldn't have pets. Exotic pets are a good place to start since they're not as mainstream as dogs or cats. Sadly most don't realize the umbrella term that "exotic" really is, so while they're all for rallying behind the no big snakes and predatory cats, they're in effect giving up their ability (not right) to keep fish, birds, smaller reptiles, etc.
PAGE
11:52:09
I'm Susan Page and you're listening to "The Diane Rehm Show." Let's go talk to Sandy who's calling us from Baltimore. Sandy, you're on the air.
SANDY
11:52:18
Thank you very much. First, I just wanna say that I was an animal keeper for 28 years in large zoos. I also have been involved in reptile rescue with an accredited non-profit for the past 20 years. So I've worked with a lot of different animals. I worked for 13 years just with primates. And I know from my own personal experience and training new keepers, it takes a long time to teach people how to take really quality care of exotics. And I just don't think that most people right of the bat are going to know how to take care of their exotic, nor a private citizen on the whole going to begin to have the financial resources or the knowledge how to properly cage animals to provide the habitats they need to keep them happy.
[Joey] Really. How many for profit zoos are doing a great job? How many for profit animal breeders are having more success than zoos? That experience that you spoke so highly of comes from your time at the zoo. Your time working with the animals. If you were to come over to my collection you would have also received hands on but supervised training. You would gain knowledge about their care and natural history and you would understand how important the survival of each animal is to the responsible keeper. You would know how much money and time we put into these animals. For many of us it was our love for these animals that brought us into this industry. They are not a commodity as HSUS tries to portray them.
SANDY
11:53:06
But the point I wanna mention that has been discussed here is in the case of reptiles, a lot of reptiles that are in our pet trade come from overseas, and so many of them die in the process of coming over here. And that's really underappreciated how much devastation we're doing to wild populations in order to support trade in this country.
[Joey] Not true. The animals in question are typically captive bred. There isn't much demand for WC Burmese pythons, reticulated pythons, anacondas, etc. Now lets talk of a much more important issue for a moment. You say that the numbers that die to support this hobby are devastating. Lets ignore the biggest offenders already mentioned namely the skin trade and meat trade. Here is an avenue where the hobby can come to the rescue. Captive breeding programs are how we eliminate the desire for wild caught animals. Burmese pythons, rock pythons, etc. are in little demand as WC animals due to the availability of captive bred offspring. Alligator farms eliminated the need for poaching wild gators for skin/meat.
[Joey] For many of these animals the pet trade may be their only hope. Shinisaurus crocodilurus is suffering from habitat destruction. So much that they're not imported anymore. Sad thing is it wasn't the pet trade that hurt them. It was habitat destruction. Now the pet trade can work as a backup for this species. Our kids will know what these lizards look like in person due to the pet trade. There are more tigers in the US than there are in the wild. Our kids will be able to see tigers because responsible owners, zoos, and sanctuaries exist. There isn't much "wild" left for these animals.
[Joey] There aren't enough accredited zoos to do all the work. We need responsible pet owners. Zoos are also limited on their space and though the caller bragged about the resources necessary to successfully keep these animals, most zoos are struggling. Zoos can't keep all the animals. There isn't enough space. The oddball lizard that doesn't make a good show piece will be forgotten about and go extinct with few noticing it if it weren't for the captive breeders doing all they can to keep it around. Zoos aren't the only answer and we can't expect them to do it all themselves. Responsible pet owners can assist in keeping these species around, but Wayne and his buddies want to end that since they don't believe it is ethical to keep the animals in cages. If Wayne had his way, foreign countries would destroy the animal's habitat (much like the US has already done…..see the sugarcane glades….I mean everglades for an example) and as long as they weren't pets we'd be okay. The animals would be used as trophies and meat for other countries and animals would be allowed to go extinct for human greed.
[Joey] Out of sight and out of mind Wayne? Is that how HSUS works? The pet trade instead offers a safety net for these species. Lizards from a small island that get wiped out by storms, poachers, skin traders, etc. have a chance now since many dedicated keepers are doing our best to improve husbandry and captive success. Most of us are doing so at a loss as well. We're paying to do this. Some are lucky enough to make a profit. Making a profit doing what you love, doing it responsibly, and doing nothing that puts others in immediate danger doesn't sound that bad to me. To most Americans I'd bet.
PAGE
11:53:30
Sandy, thanks so much for your call. So you've been working this field. What do you think? Do you think this ought to be banned for private ownership, regulated in some way? What is your idea about what ought to be done? Sandy?
SANDY
11:53:45
Yes.
PAGE
11:53:46
Yes. I'm wondering what do we think we ought to do?
SANDY
11:53:50
I don't think that people should be allowed to own wild exotics and definitely that would be in the case of the large -- any of the cats and bears and all of that. To me, there's just -- that's a no-brainer. I think in the case of reptiles, I could imagine that captive born small snakes that never achieve size would be okay. It's fairly easy to care for snakes. But I don't think, in the case of turtles and lizards, which are other reptiles, that most people succeed.
[Joey] Yes since nobody is as responsible as zoos. Need I remind readers that earlier it was pointed out that most recent fatal attacks have happened with animals kept in zoos. If a zoo can't handle it maybe they should turn them over to a private collector willing to put the necessary safety protocol in place. Just saying.
SANDY
11:54:26
I had a specialty with (word?) lizards, which are tree dwelling lizards for quite a long time. I do turtle rescue now primarily. And it's really hard to meet their needs. And I just don't think people should be allowed them. And that would apply to both native species as well as exotics that, you know, come from other countries. Certainly there are people who are dedicated and do a wonderful job of it, but most people don't. So for, you know, for everyone that succeeds, there's just countless that don't.
[Joey] The missing word is arboreal. I thought it was a no brainer, but apparently whomever was typing this transcript didn't catch it. Now my question (obviously rhetorical) for Sandy is which arboreal lizard? That term is very general and in no way represents a real taxonomic group. There isn't a family for all arboreal lizards. Many lizards are arboreal even if they aren't closely related. So are we talking green iguanas? Green tree monitors? Anoles? Solomon isle monkey tail skinks? Each one of these requires very different care. I'm sure you already knew that though since you're an expert at arboreal lizards. I especially like the "exotics that, you know, come from other countries"……yeah….that is kind of what exotic means. Not native. But you're an arboreal lizard expert. I'm sure you already knew that.
[Joey] Now most importantly. You (Sandy) said "most people don't" succeed at keeping these lizards. Please pray tell, where did you get these stats from?
SANDY
11:54:57
And you go to any pet shop or go to any trade show where they're selling the goods to care for these animals, and I know from my own personal experience, decades of experience, that what they're generally offering in terms of information, housing, products for nutrition, et cetera, are just so inadequate.
[Joey] Really? Give an example. That is quite the claim. The onus is with you to support it. Or just spout off something that may sound good without actually having any idea what you are talking about. You do realize we breed these animals in far greater numbers than zoos do right? Apparently someone let the secret slip and we found ways to keep these successfully. Even better than most zoos. Sorry, but your argument has no ground. Please hang up now. You're hurting my brain.
The hobby has progressed our knowledge of animal care far further than any zoo, especially in regards to reptiles. I like some zoos, but they're being paraded on this show as though they are the answer to all life's issues. They are not. Either way, they cannot do it alone. The hobbyists should be seen as another avenue for genetic diversity. Not the enemy.
PAGE
11:55:15
Sandy, thanks so much for giving your perspective. You know, we've had several emails like this one from Donna, who says, "I would like to hear Mr. Pacelle address the emotional impact of confinement upon these animals. We've mainly been hearing about the safety issue associated with private ownership of exotic animals. But we haven't heard anything yet about the impact of such ownership on the animals themselves. I'm thinking about cases such as Tony the Truck Stop Tiger and other similarly imprisoned animals." Just a little bit of time left. Wayne, what would you say?
[Joey] Seriously? Seriously? Wayne is not the exotic cat whisperer? He CANNOT tell what they're thinking or feel. I think I heard an exotic cat yell out "HAVE YOU HEARD OF THE TERM ANTHROPOMORPHISM?" What credentials does Wayne have to allow him to tell us what animals are feeling? He doesn't keep animals. Plus feelings are a difficult subject with humans. Let alone projecting them onto animals.
[Joey] (Here comes the sarcasm again.) It must suck being imprisoned in a responsible keeper's care. You don't have to worry about harsh weather. It is always pleasant. You don't have to worry about predators. Sounds awful. In Africa I was worried about predators for a bit. It was unnerving. Especially collecting insects at night, shining my light across a field, and seeing eyes reflecting back at me. So no bad weather, no predators, and a mate. Seems pretty good. True the cage space isn't unlimited but there are limitations in the wild as well. You have competitors (other animals) living nearby and limiting territories. And of course the overwhelming and growing human population building condos, golf courses, etc.
PACELLE
11:55:44
Well, the previous caller, let me say, I wholeheartedly agree with her assessment. And this goes back to the point that even if Andrew and a couple of other people, and I have no knowledge of his animal care performance, but if it's great, good for you. But the vast majority of people are not. But -- so the trade issue...
[Joey] Get him Andrew. This one is a gimmie!
WYATT
11:56:00
You have no basis for that statement.
[Joey] Good now expand upon this. Let him know that there are many that make a living and many that put a great deal of time and effort into ensuring their animals are healthy. Challenge him to go to any reptile show and see how many of us are committed to seeing our animals are healthy and go into the hands of equally committed keepers. Please tell him how many of us do all we can to figure out better methods for keeping our pets. Or stop here and let Wayne take center stage again……..which you did….Thanks.
PACELLE
11:56:01
...it's the trade issue. Yes, I do because we work with these people all the time. Sandy was absolutely right about the trade issues. But the message that you just related, Susan, about the long-term confinement of animals, the fact that these animals, you know, have instincts and needs that cannot be met in these captive settings, that's why accredited zoos struggle with enrichment programs. And we're learning so much more about the needs of the animals. For a private citizen with almost no experience, no training, to deal with a complex set of behavioral needs of the animal is just an impossible situation.
[Joey] Reptile keepers "struggle" with enrichment too. It isn't a unique concern for zoos and zoos alone. Again with the no experience thing. Very few people wake up and go "I think I'll buy a tiger today!" It is an investment that private collectors spend a large sum of their own money to fund. They do this because they love the animals and they want to give them the best life they can if that life is going to be lived outside their natural range. I'm sure the fair and unbiased moderator will allow Andrew to address this. Right? Wrong.
PAGE
11:56:35
I know that we have big divisions on this issue with our panel and with some of our callers, but we're out of time. I wanna thank our panel for joining us. Zuzana Kukol from the Responsible Exotic Animal Ownership group, Andrew Wyatt, president of the United States Association of Reptile Keepers and Wayne Pacelle, president and CEO of the Humane Society of the United States. Thank you all for being with us this hour on "The Diane Rehm Show." I'm Susan Page of USA Today sitting in for Diane Rehm. She'll be back tomorrow. Thanks for listening.
Transcripts of WAMU programs are available for personal use. Transcripts are provided "As Is" without warranties of any kind, either express or implied. WAMU does not warrant that the transcript is error-free. For all WAMU programs, the broadcast audio should be considered the authoritative version. Transcripts are owned by WAMU 88.5 FM American University Radio and are protected by laws in both the United States and international law. You may not sell or modify transcripts or reproduce, display, distribute, or otherwise use the transcript, in whole or in part, in any way for any public or commercial purpose without the express written permission of WAMU. All requests for uses beyond personal and noncommercial use should be referred to (202) 885-1200.
|
Linear Mode
