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Veterinarian Practice & General Health Issues Anything to do with veterinarians, health issues, pathogens, hygiene, or sanitation.

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Old 11-24-2016, 01:09 AM   #11
bcr229
Quote:
Originally Posted by thamnophis123 View Post
I would be careful with remedies that have no evidence behind them. Just because this one snake recovered doesn't mean the treatment worked, or even helped. Injections are potentially problematic, especially for high strung snakes like some Nerodia.

Not saying there's is not a good intervention, just would like to see a little more supporting evidence.
I agree, but I don't think there is a ton of research - yet - on treatments that do and do not work, or even if the treatment has to be tailored to the species. For instance, if SFD entered a collection and a species like a Brazilian rainbow boa were infected, the high heat and dry conditions described as a treatment would kill the critter long before it killed the fungus. For the water snakes, if you want to increase vitamin intake is there a good way to someone inject or "gut load" the vitamins into their feeders so that you're not stressing the snake?

Another consideration is antiseptics. I noticed that bleach is mentioned a lot for disinfecting equipment and field tools, but I prefer not to use it in my snake enclosures unless they have a long time to dry even after I rinse them. It would be nice to know alternatives like F10SC or even a UV-C light are effective, and the concentration needed to kill the spores.

Speaking of the spores, is it even known if they're only ground-based or can they go airborne?
 
Old 11-24-2016, 05:08 AM   #12
Logan256
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcr229 View Post
For the water snakes, if you want to increase vitamin intake is there a good way to someone inject or "gut load" the vitamins into their feeders so that you're not stressing the snake?
This is one thing that I'm very interested in discussing with my vet. Most of those vitamins serve to boost the immune system, which I feel could lead to more efficient healing. The only drawback I can think of is the food item itself - if the snake is a rodent eater, it seems pretty straight forward. I've never tried to inject anything into a f/t fish, but I doubt it would be as agreeable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcr229 View Post
I noticed that bleach is mentioned a lot for disinfecting equipment and field tools, but I prefer not to use it in my snake enclosures unless they have a long time to dry even after I rinse them. It would be nice to know alternatives like F10SC or even a UV-C light are effective, and the concentration needed to kill the spores.
I've been looking for information on this and can't seem to find any - bleach seems to be the only rock-solid solution. Hopefully as more research is done we'll learn more. It may also help to see if there's any information on similar fungus spores and how those react to those (or any) alternatives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcr229 View Post
Speaking of the spores, is it even known if they're only ground-based or can they go airborne?
All I can say to this is that I hope they're strictly ground based.
 
Old 11-24-2016, 07:53 PM   #13
bcr229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan256 View Post
I've been looking for information on this and can't seem to find any - bleach seems to be the only rock-solid solution.
The BBC article in post #10 mentions using rubbing alcohol as a disinfectant, most likely the 90% rather than 70% solution. It's not as cheap as bleach or F10 but that's what I'd use inside the enclosure, as it would take very little time to dry out and air out.
 
Old 11-29-2016, 12:41 AM   #14
EdwardK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan256 View Post
This is one thing that I'm very interested in discussing with my vet. Most of those vitamins serve to boost the immune system, which I feel could lead to more efficient healing. The only drawback I can think of is the food item itself - if the snake is a rodent eater, it seems pretty straight forward. I've never tried to inject anything into a f/t fish, but I doubt it would be as agreeable.
There is one area of vitamin addition with snakes that is often overlooked in the US side of the reptile keeping hobby and has only relatively recently begun to be studied in comparison of in situ versus in captivity and that is circulating levels of D3 and the metabolites of D3. Tests on several different reptiles in the wild have shown that if given the opportunity they will behaviorally modify their circulating levels of D3 and its metabolites through basking.

Ferguson, Gary W., et al. "Voluntary exposure of some western‐hemisphere snake and lizard species to ultraviolet‐B radiation in the field: how much ultraviolet‐B should a lizard or snake receive in captivity?." Zoo biology 29.3 (2010): 317-334.

Acierno, Mark J., et al. "Effects of ultraviolet radiation on plasma 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 concentrations in corn snakes (Elaphe guttata)." American journal of veterinary research 69.2 (2008): 294-297.

Ramer, Jan C., et al. "Vitamin D status of wild Ricord's iguanas (Cyclura ricordii) and captive and wild rhinoceros iguanas (Cyclura cornuta cornuta) in the Dominican Republic." Journal of Zoo and Wildlife Medicine 36.2 (2005): 188-191.

Considering D3 solely as a vitamin really undersells its position in the metabolic process as it acts much more like a hormone and impacts multiple systems in the body. D3 is important in the proper function of the immune system so the ability of the snakes to regulate their levels of D3 can be an important resource for the animals to deal with immune threats.

Another vitamin that is important and overlooked is vitamin E (tocopherols) as the levels of vitamin E in the body are the result of what they consume in their diet and since both A and E are derived solely from the diet you need to watch the ratios of A3:E in the diet as ratios out of the 10 to 1 to 0.1 can result in conditional deficiencies. Deficiencies in these vitamins can also cause issues such as immune function deficiencies but modifying them is best done through an analysis of the diet.
with respect to E see

Dierenfeld, Ellen S. "Vitamin E deficiency in zoo reptiles, birds, and ungulates." Journal of Zoo and Wildlife Medicine (1989): 3-11.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan256 View Post
I've been looking for information on this and can't seem to find any - bleach seems to be the only rock-solid solution. Hopefully as more research is done we'll learn more. It may also help to see if there's any information on similar fungus spores and how those react to those (or any) alternatives.
Keep in mind that this pathogen was only recently separated out from the CANV (Chrysosporium anamorph of Nannizziopsis vriesii) which is one of the reasons if you search for SFD you only get much more recent articles as a real analysis has to also consider those prior articles where it diagnosed as the other closely related pathogen so disinfectants that work for CANV should work just fine for this species.

In the one article that specifically tested SFD and disinfectants, bleach, ETOH, and quaternary ammonium disinfectants all worked on them and if you don't want to use bleach quaternary ammonia disinfectants like Roccal-D should be fine.

here is a free access link to the above article (can't say for how long the link will work)

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Fungal_Disease

some comments

Ed
 
Old 11-29-2016, 12:44 AM   #15
EdwardK
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcr229 View Post

Speaking of the spores, is it even known if they're only ground-based or can they go airborne?
The fungus is able to persist long-term in suitable conditions without the presence of reptiles. See ALLENDER, Matthew C., et al. "The natural history, ecology, and epidemiology of Ophidiomyces ophiodiicola and its potential impact on free-ranging snake populations." (2015)

link to article (currently free access but could change)

http://wwx.inhs.illinois.edu/files/4...l_Ecol2015.pdf

some comments

Ed
 
Old 11-29-2016, 12:48 AM   #16
EdwardK
Quote:
Originally Posted by thamnophis123 View Post
But if it is the cause, why is it so often shed off with no serious repercussions but sometimes wipe out a big hunk of the population? I don't think anyone knows.
Where has it wiped out a big hunk of the population? Do you have a reference for this claim?

some comments

Ed
 
Old 11-30-2016, 02:15 PM   #17
tim brophy
Anecdotal evidence, but I have heard the same (drastic reduction in population) from Park Rangers at Lake Carlyle, which is within the heart of the very limited range of this species in central/southern Illinois.
 
Old 12-06-2016, 11:53 PM   #18
snakesareawesome
Tim, I've been to that population in IL many times. They were going to (maybe did build) a bicycle path right above a major overwintering area. There is a lot going on there. I also highly doubt that most field hepers disinfect their boots/hooks on a regular basis. Heck I've been field herping for a long, long time and I've yet to see that being widely practiced on a regular basis. The fact is field herpers probably do help spread the disease from site to site.
 
Old 12-15-2016, 05:53 PM   #19
Robert Walker
I have not read this entire thread, I apologize in advance.

Question:
Are people attributing the spread of SFD to "wild" specimens entering into otherwise sanitized protected CB collections?
 
Old 04-30-2017, 12:46 PM   #20
thamnophis123
I have not read of any confirmed cases of wild snakes infecting captive snakes. The only exception I know of is <a> case of wild caught adult Nerodia giving birth to young which are then shown to be positive for the disease. We dont know if the babies were infected from their surroundings or if they were born with it - contracted it from infected females that birthed them.

Also - why did my attempt to update this situation on the Board get blocked?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Walker View Post
I have not read this entire thread, I apologize in advance.

Question:
Are people attributing the spread of SFD to "wild" specimens entering into otherwise sanitized protected CB collections?
 

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