The Columbus Reptile show was Raided by Fish&wildlife officers

[quote] The warrents were issued because all three
Nelson Critterman and James from pet city All three of these guys have sold protected or indigenous animals to undercover officers within 6 months or so , hell James sold a captive born Blandings turtle to one officer over 2 YEARS ago!! We as responsible vendors have to watch our back and keep abbrest of all local state laws or we will give these asses just cause[in thier mind].
[quote]

You can view this as the "half empty or half full glass approach". As long as they were after those breaking the law it should be viewed as if the glass was half full. The reason might have been some animals were illegally sold in the past to DNR officials, as suggested by John. Don't be surprised though if some of the tips came from other herpers. People that do this for a living, and do it by the book, sometimes get tired of this unfair competition. Isn't it possible that some rather than being outraged by this might have said to themselves: finally!? In my opinion watching each other backs means keeping this hobby clean and making sure everyone plays by the same set of rules and not taking advantage of fellow herpers.

Regards.

yes Daniel
I also agree that some 'herpers' might view the competition as an unfair advantage, but what about those vindictive herpers that are out to cause conflict, or get a rise out of someone.
A police officer came to the show here a couple of weeks ago and said he had a complaint of someone selling prairie dogs [there wasn't a rodent at the show] never said where the complaint came from....there was also another show going on at that time,
coincidence????
As I said before we ALL NEED TO STICK TOGETHER!!!!
Dan said!? In my opinion watching each other backs means keeping this hobby clean and making sure everyone plays by the same set of rules and not taking advantage of fellow herpers.
WORDS TO LIVE BY
this is only gonna get worse unless we all do something
please everybody check your state and local laws involving our hobby

As John has said this is only the tip of the iceberg. Laws are going to be coming up and we all need to keep each other aware of them so that we can use forums, emails and simple old snail mail to voice our opposition to them. Is there any clearing medium set up so that herpers can keep checking both on pending legislation but also existing laws? I know Evan has mentioned this topic in the past and if there isnt one maybe its time to start one.

Having been in business and always feeling the pressure from unfair competition, when you play by the rules, can really build up and at times you want to "inform" on the competition. And yet we have threads on this forum (namely one on Kevin Peters) were the informer was simply trying to get back, and used DNR to do so. Being an informant is not the way to straighten out this hobby. The good guys sticking together, pointing out the ways to stop the bad guys. Using the BOI and getting the word out that you shouldnt buy just any old animal, from any old source. Or as has been mentioned "Sticking together" or maybe better put, "Divide and conquer" if we are fighting amongst ourselves then their ability to take our rights away is made significantly easier.

Originally posted by evansnakes
Since passage of the "patriot act" warrants are much easier to obtain. and "probable cause" standards have been lowered for everything.

Warrants are no easier to obtain post Patriot Act. Remember, the Patriot Act refers to terrorism only so any law enforcement agency that wants to use it had better be able to show it involves terrorism or be in a world of trouble come court time.

Probable cause standards have not been lowered. Basically, probable cause is "more likely than not." Probable cause is in the 4th Amendment and there is copious amounts of case law from the US Supreme Court out lining it. It can not be changed with out a constitutional amendment and that takes 3/4 of the States to ratify.

You should be mad at the vendors that were arrested/searched, not at law enforcement. These vendors that were selling illegal animals are the ones hurting the trade, not law enforcement. We should police ourselves and refuse to do business with anyone that would jeapordize the herp industry. If we can not do that, we have no one to blame but ourselves when the legislation comes down.

You should be mad at the vendors that were arrested/searched, not at law enforcement. These vendors that were selling illegal animals are the ones hurting the trade, not law enforcement. We should police ourselves and refuse to do business with anyone that would jeapordize the herp industry. If we can not do that, we have no one to blame but ourselves when the legislation comes down.

Well said Dennis!

Take care.

and that would be a good arguement if all was as it seems. I agree there's a wide array of sellers - some bad/some good/some great - but I'm under the impression that some of the people with their homes raided, where the good/great guys. I don't know any of the names listed above, but I know a few other's that are huge to the industry, and great people that go by the book. The problem is the "book" itself. I agree we need to weed out the bad guys with no pride, no care, and nothing but dollar signs in their eyes. The hobby would be far greater off without them, and the big guys/girls would probrably welcome a nice "clean" expo enviroment, but it seems some of the big guys/girls have been wrongly accused. They actually took animals that they said were "this" that were "that" for evidence. The law/laws are written by ignorant suits that know little about us otrthe animals. Bottom line - there are many doing what they can to fight these laws, but we need more. PIJAC.
All in all, I feel for all of us good guys, we don't deserve it...

Although the term probable cause and the protection of illegal search and seizure is stated in the 4th amendment. What constitutes probable cause is not stated. Therefore not subject to ratification by states. Or can be left to the interpretation of the judge that signs the warrant.

Yet I agree with what you are saying and you definitely did a better job of expressing it than I did. Bottom line the probable cause in this case was the selling of protected or indigenous animals to undercover officers. More than enough to get a warrant under any definition. And we shouldnt blame the Fish and Wildlife Officers.

If we dont police ourselves then the government will feel the need to police us.

that sold endangered/protected/native without proper permits, etc...but please remember this is only 1/2 true!! They WRONGLY IDENTIFIED species of Salamander and Colubrids RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY FACE!! Took them for evidence!!! It's BS, and should not be tolerated by ANY MEANS!! It's WRONG (uh-oh, caught myself typing like Neil) I'm all for the right laws that protect, but some are pure 100% BS, now all of you tell me this...have you ever smoked marijuana, have you ever consumed alcohol under the age of 21, have you gone over the speed limit??? Well these are all good laws - for our protection/safety, but they're broken every single day. Part of life, but please tell me why there is a "limit" on CB ALBINO RATSNAKES!! Answer anyone??? I know why, because an a$$hole freakin' wrote the "book" PERIOD, and I don't like a$$holes - for obvious reasons...they stink!!
PIJAC!!!!!!!!

The hobby would be far greater off without them, and the big guys/girls would probrably welcome a nice "clean" expo enviroment, but it seems some of the big guys/girls have been wrongly accused.

Troy,

Point well taken. I'm not implying that all those investigated had done something wrong. Although mistakes can be made I would suspect that the DNR was quite careful about who they were investigating, and when they broke into a place they better have quite a strong case to back it up.

Part of life, but please tell me why there is a "limit" on CB ALBINO RATSNAKES!! Answer anyone???

I was not aware of this disposition and it seems ridiculous. Where can one read more about it?

Regards.

There is a limit because they are albino BLACK RAT SNAKES and black rat snakes are indigenous to the areas raided and threatened or protected in other states [Michigan]. there are permits for these and a limit is set.
Also keep in mind you get the permits for the adults you have ,they breed and then you are over the limit, wildlife knows this and raids your house each spring.
The written word does not say anything about color morphs of this species, and I am sure the wildlife officers know this and the mentality of these guys is 'its still a black rat snake' albino, leucistic or otherwise.
any one else see this grey line here???