Right or Wrong? Good or Bad?

Before anyone goes balistic on me all words here below are Bill Cagles, he simply asked me to post this, as he doesnt have the ability, so feel free to read on if you like.


First off, I will be typing this without all the caps, so no one has any problems reading it. I am just curious to know what everyone thinks about a site that allows an innocent person to be repeatedly and unjustly bashed, and does not allow this same person to come to his own defense? As you all
know by now, I have been wrongly accused and ridiculed by several on this site. There has been almost 2400 views on this subject, so it is obvious alot of people out there are interested. The webslave will not allow me to post on
this site because I told him what I thought about his ethics regarding a post several months back. I spoke my mind so he simply eliminated me from posting. Once again, this is very unethical. You get mad at someone because they voice
their opinion? I thought that was what the BOI was all about, voicing your opinion. Yet I can't voice mine. Is that right? Several people tried their best to make me look like the bad guy and when the facts were on the table,
these people all ran away. Someone that I have never even done business with, had to come to my defense and post my follow up. I will have to send this post to him in order to get it posted. Is that right?  I know the Webslave will probably remove this, and I will have wasted all this time, but
that will then prove my point. If not, then why shouldn't I be able to post? Maybe I am wrong, but this seems like a very unprofessional way to run a BOI. I thought Freedom of Speech applies to everyone. Oh yea, and by the way, all
you people that were unjustly attacking me....why have you not gone after the guilty party? Once again, looks like it could be personal. If you worms don't like me, I don't care. I will continue to speak my mind when I have all the facts to back it up.

Bill, Rich seems like a fair person. Have you spoken to him since these posts started? I believe if you called him and spoke to him he would give you a chance to come and tell your side of the story.

Bobby Douglass

I am not out to judge anyone, just comment on the facts presented in this forum.  After reading Bill's letter the one thing that I come away with is that the issues at hand were not dealt with and the one thing focussed on was his right to respond to the allegations at hand.  Well maybe that should have been part of the note.  I do agree with Bill in that he should be able to defend himself on the BOI.  I dont know why the webslave will not let him post, although I doubt it was just an arbitrary decision on his part.  Ultimately Bill does need to be able to defend himself against any accusations or the BOI only serves to be a blackboard for possible slander.  There are always two sides to every story.  Personally I would not buy an animal from Bill right now because of what I have read, this is my choice and there is nothing personal involved since I dont know Bill and I have never done business with him.  But playing devils advocate for a minute, what if he can explain this away, prove himself to not be at fault ?  If he doesnt have the chance to do so then we all have to assume he is guilty of bad business practices.  Lets not assume anything !!!  Lets hear from Bill, even if its through someone else.  But based on what has been posted here I would not risk my collection or any of my customers collections by purchasing one of his animals.  If he is not guilty is that very fare to him ?  On the other hand if he is guilty of the things he is accused of then I hope everyone follows my thought and refuses his animals even if he offers them for free !!!!   But we are still in America and that guarantees certain rights and before someones livelyhood is threatened then they should be able to be heard, and allowed the right to present their side in their own defense.  Right or wrong ?


Gary Walsch
Sunshine State Reptiles &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

Since it was brought up, I would be interested to know the details on why Bill cannot post here. &nbsp;What was said, etc.
Anyway, to what this thread is about. &nbsp;I just want to recap a few things that I have said on here and the forums in regards to this situation.
I think Bill made good a LONG time ago. &nbsp;I said that at the beginning. &nbsp;Snakes were purchased, the buyer was not happy (does not matter what he was not happy about) and snkaes were replaced. &nbsp;As far as the deal is concerned, regardless of why the snakes died, they were taken care of by the replacement snakes. &nbsp;I am not sure why Chris now has started apporx. 5-6 DIFFERENT threads between the two sites, but that is his decision. &nbsp;
I am not going to go into what I think about IBD. &nbsp;We all have ideas and thoughts, but the people studying it daily have little answers, so we would know less.
As far as Bill Cagle and his business is concerned, people will make the decision of whether they want to buy from him or not regardless of what others say. &nbsp;I personally would not buy RIGHT NOW. &nbsp;Would I buy from him at a later date, sure. &nbsp;I think Bill does have a valid arguement as far as being responsible for the IBD. &nbsp;Just to clarify the difference, that does not excuse him for the outcome of the deal itself, but like I stated he made good on that. &nbsp;Anyway, back to my point. &nbsp;Bill got the snakes from someone else and they too are part of the problem. &nbsp;I am not shifting this to bash them, but facts are facts. &nbsp;Bill was not the only one to have these snakes in the short time before selling it to Chris. &nbsp;MAYBE Bill should have had no idea they had IBD. &nbsp;How long did the other person have them and why did they get rid of them? &nbsp;Again, not blaming, just thoughts/questions.
My closing thoughts, I DO think Bill should be caucious. &nbsp;I cannot tell him whether he should close doors, rid himself of his collection, or what to do. &nbsp;That is for Bill to decide. &nbsp;IF he knows FOR SURE that those snakes were not in "general population" then maybe he should go on with business as usual.
To Chris, I stuck up for you from the beginning. &nbsp;I thought and still do think you should have got your replacements and that is what happened. &nbsp;If you are more upset about the replacements now knowing the other had IBD, then you should have waited to get the facts on what the reason of illness/death was before you decided to be re-embursed. &nbsp;
I think you are driving yourself crazy with this and nobody can help you with that. &nbsp;Botoom line, like I have already said here and other threads/forums, you made a deal that was not to par and you accpeted other snakes in return. &nbsp;You cannot just keep asking for replacements or bitch until you find something you like.
Have a great weekend everyone!
Brian Oakley

Brian...I think you missed the point?? Forget the IBD stuff, this isn't about that part of it....this has to do with the DEAL ITSELF!! REMEMBER...Chris bought KNOWINGLY sick snakes...He KNEW they were sick, He BOUGHT them as sick, They were ADVERTISED as sick....what did he expect when one of them died??, for WHATEVER REASON!! Bill did something NOT MANY OF US WOULD HAVE! He exchanged healthy snakes for KNOWINGLY PURCHASED SICK ONES! If the snakes were originally healthy, and THEN died, that's a different story, a replacement or refund WOULD be in order...but, THIS IS DIFFERENT! Bill didn't owe him a THING! He went WAY ABOVE his ethical responsibility...I respect the hell out of him for that! I wouldn't have given Chris anything! There ARE limits to fairness!....Neil

I agree with alot of what you said Brian also some of the threads above, no matter what the differances are between him and Rich he should be able to defend himself, if the two of them are not getting along and rich wants to ban him I can see it from the rest of the forums and maybe even threads on this forum that do not pertain to him however ones that do pertain to him he should be allowed to post in,

also as far as Cagles querintine, according to emails sent to me eartlier today, he has it in a seperate building from his "personal collection", also he has 3 more animals that came from the same guy as the one proven to have IBD, he is shipping those off to Dr. Elliot Jacobson at University of FL, to be examined and what not, also they have been moved from the building he querintines and has his for sale stock in to a building were they are the only snakes to inhabit it, just in case

just some more info

Bill mentions why haven't the BOI gone after the gulity party? Im guessing he's referring to whom he purchased the the snakes in question here from. Chris didn't buy them from them, he bought them from Bill & saying there is a guilty party in this mess means he admits the problem at hand yet still continues to sell everyday (so does who Bill claims he got them from) after admitting the problem animals came from him the fact that he purchased from someone else isn't the main point here. The main point would be you could possibly be infecting many peoples collections & let alone all the snakes that could suffer from this & what about others like Bill that do this for a living, if they find out after the fact that a snake they got at show was in Bills collection at some piont in time what are they to do? Going by Bills reputation I don't think Bill had any idea about the snakes being sick that were sold but the problem still exists. I get a sick feeling inside everytime I see a ad of his & who he claims he got them from in the Classifieds knowing the potential of what could happen.Just my thought on this Since I think this story has sent a serious scare through alot of people. spam_Chris Pearson

Neil,
I underatnd exactly what the thread is about. &nbsp;I covered, very clearly, how I felt Bill made good. &nbsp;THat is that. &nbsp;Like I stated in my thread, I was just covering many points that were talked about over the last few weeks.
Brian

Well Brian you are right, Bill did make good on the deal and went out of his way by giving the customer some of his own boas to the customer in exchange for sick animals that the customer knew were less than 100%. However Neil I gotta disagree with you, this whole thing is not about the deal and the fact Bill did what he did to make Chris happy, It is however the fact that once IBD was identified by a qualified vet nothing was done by Bill to possibly contain the outbreak of this disease or at least quit selling animals until he knew something or had some kind of suspicion either way as to the status of his animals. &nbsp;And what Chris said is very true in asking who the mystery people are who originally sold Bill the animals in the first place, and I gotta tell you I get that same feeling whenever I see his postings on boas. &nbsp;I really think we need to hear from BIll. &nbsp;Just by going by his reputation I would say ( prior to this incident ) that he was someone I would deal with, but now a black cloud hangs where his good name used to be. &nbsp;And going back to what Brian said about Chris just getting over it ....... I dont agree with that at all, since by continuing this he may unwillingly help alot of us out in our future ventures. &nbsp;And I feel that if Bill is not guilty of any wrong doing in continuing to sell after he knew of the IBD, maybe there was a reason ..... like if these animals were quarantined in a seperate building away from other animals, that would make sense but we really need to hear Bill's side because there in way to much conjecture on this topic. &nbsp;WE know some of the facts .... He did the right thing by the customer, He told the customer in the beginning they were not 100%, We know the animals were infested with IBD, But that is really all we know.


Gary Walsch
Sunshine State Reptiles

Gary...I agree with you 100%!! I was ONLY talking about the DEAL ITSELF!! That's IT! Obviously...we should be VERY CONCERNED about the origin of these snakes (which I think Bill has already addressed)...and YES! Bill SHOULD stop selling snakes until such a time that this can be sorted out, and YES! We should make it known to the original dealer of our concerns, and YES! Bill SHOULD be allowed to get on here and defend himself...And YES and YES and YES!! To repeat...I was only talking about the deal itself! That's it....Neil