Tegu Taming

Well, I had decided I wanted a big lizard, and after tons of research, I decided on a tegu, beating out the monitors and the iguanas. I went to my local Reptile store, Scales and Tails where they had a beautiful baby gold and black tegu, roughly 7 inches. I took him home and he (or she) is doing beautifully. I feel like I nailed every aspect of the cage from temp to decor to humidity etc. He eats like a fiend, crickets, fruit, eggs, etc, haven't tried a pinky yet, they told me to hold off until he was a little bigger. ANYWAY he's healthy and active. The only problem I've had is he seems fairly aggressive. I've done my best to differentiate between when I'm reaching in to feed and when I'm going in to hold him. I hold him a couple times a day for 15 minutes each and I am present in the room alot so he gets used to me. He bites my hand when it comes anywhere near him and while it doesn't hurt I could see how it could in the future. Is there anything I'm missing or do I just need to give him more time? I know some animals just don't tame down, but I want to give it my best shot.

The best thing you could do would be to take him out of his vivarium and feed him in another container like a plastic storage box. I don't have a Tegu, but while I was researching them this was mentioned frequently. You have trained it to associate you sticking your hand in there with food so as long as you continue to feed in there it will probably remain aggressive and bit. Best of luck!

You know, I've always been very skeptical of the whole "feed them in another container" thing.

Logically, if you're taking them out in order to put them in that container, won't they associate being picked up with being fed? How is that any better than associating the cage door opening with being fed?

Honestly, I don't think it makes even the slightest bit of difference, and is built on nothing but anecdotes (and, as we say in science, the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'). IME, the strongest trigger for feeding, by far, is scent.

Originally Posted by Mokele

You know, I've always been very skeptical of the whole "feed them in another container" thing.

Logically, if you're taking them out in order to put them in that container, won't they associate being picked up with being fed? How is that any better than associating the cage door opening with being fed?

Honestly, I don't think it makes even the slightest bit of difference, and is built on nothing but anecdotes (and, as we say in science, the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'). IME, the strongest trigger for feeding, by far, is scent.

Think about it for a moment....
Yes if you pick them up it may or may not mean to them they're getting fed. You might just be holding them...The point is they don't know for sure and they certainly ARE NOT as likely to bite the hand that may or may not take them where they get fed. The point is that they don't associate your hand in their vivarium with immediate possible food and there is also a good chance that your hand has the scent of the food you've prepped on it.
It's more like the spatial association they make. If they never eat in their viv then they probably won't expect to ever eat in their viv, and therefore won't bite as a feeding response in their viv. As far as the anecdotal stuff, would you like to explain that to my Dumeril's boa that used to bite on feeding day as I would reach in to hold her, even when I hadn't been near a mouse, but has since stopped since I, you guessed it, removed her to feed...
I guess if it's convenient to believe that there is some conspiracy from some of the top Tegu breeders about "anecdotal" feeding misinformation, go for it.

Yes if you pick them up it may or may not mean to them they're getting fed. You might just be holding them...The point is they don't know for sure and they certainly ARE NOT as likely to bite the hand that may or may not take them where they get fed. The point is that they don't associate your hand in their vivarium with immediate possible food and there is also a good chance that your hand has the scent of the food you've prepped on it.

You do realize that you can say exactly the same thing about feeding in-cage, right? If they're not fed every time the cage opens, they may or may not be getting fed.

It's more like the spatial association they make. If they never eat in their viv then they probably won't expect to ever eat in their viv, and therefore won't bite as a feeding response in their viv

In my experience, scent is far more important; I've *never* had a feeding bite, even from highly aggressive or highly food-motivated species, without the scent of a food item being present. Defensive bites, sure, but never feeding bites.

As far as the anecdotal stuff, would you like to explain that to my Dumeril's boa that used to bite on feeding day as I would reach in to hold her, even when I hadn't been near a mouse, but has since stopped since I, you guessed it, removed her to feed...

This is exactly my point. For every story of 'it works!' (which could be explained by other factors), there's a story of 'cage feeding is fine' (which, in fairness, also could be explained away by other factors). You fixed your Dumeril's, I've never had a problem in 15 years and hundreds of animals. Keeping style, experience, caging style, temperatures, species, season, food source, all vary and all present confounding factors. Maybe my animals are just exceptionally docile, or maybe yours was responding to some other cue, one you may not have even been conscious of. We can't know.

You cannot actually conclude *anything* from such a collection of random, inconsistent set of anecdotes. What's necessary is a controlled experiment, with dozens of snakes of the same species kept in *identical* conditions with a set of specific criteria for quantifying 'aggression'.

I guess if it's convenient to believe that there is some conspiracy from some of the top Tegu breeders about "anecdotal" feeding misinformation, go for it.

Where did I ever say that? My point is that I am not convinced, because the data are too scattered and too poor, with way too many confounding variables to conclude anything. Things can look convincing on the surface, then fall apart upon closer examination.

Part of it is probably because my standards of evidence are exceptionally high, requiring controlled experimentation, quantification, and statistical analysis, but there's also the problem that not all the anecdotes go in the same direction - I know of breeders who feed out of the cage and who feed in the cage, for snakes and lizards, and I've never known there to be any substantial difference between the aggression of their animals.

The plain fact is that without controlled experimentation, it's all guesswork.

The where to feed debate has gone on for years, and will continue to...probably long after solid evidence one way or the other is provided. At this point, it is still largely a matter of personal preference (and what somebody learned - from whatever source - is better).
One thing that I'm surprised wasn't mentioned is that the OP said he purchased a gold tegu (aka black & gold, aka common, aka Colombian, etc). They are notorious for their aggressive behavior. While there are reports of some becoming fairly "tame", that is still the exception. They're still great animals, but they rarely turn into lapdogs.

Mokele, I see where you're going with this and understand your point of view. Perception is reality...If I perceive it working for me than it must be...

IME, the strongest trigger for feeding, by far, is scent.

Well I would really have to disagree here, The strongest trigger for feeding that I've noticed is hunger, my snakes don't tend to continue eating after they've had their fill ( although I do have a garbage mouth BP that probably would to explosion) but as far as I know this hasn't been studied scientifically with respect to reptiles so I guess this would still be an anecdote as well.

In my experience, scent is far more important; I've *never* had a feeding bite, even from highly aggressive or highly food-motivated species, without the scent of a food item being present. Defensive bites, sure, but never feeding bites.

Do you have some scientific studies that you use to differentiate between feeding and defensive strikes or do you just ask the snakes why they just bit you? lol

You cannot actually conclude *anything* from such a collection of random, inconsistent set of anecdotes. What's necessary is a controlled experiment, with dozens of snakes of the same species kept in *identical* conditions with a set of specific criteria for quantifying 'aggression'.

copy that, I agree...Get to work! (lol)

So back to the OP's original question: Should he just continue the same course until something is published in Scientific American or maybe try to "switch things up" a bit?

Good catch Harald, I do remember reading about the B&G Tegu's aggression, I wonder if anyone happened to mention that to the OP when he bought it?

To the OP:
You feel like you've "nailed" the various husbandry considerations, but haven't described them. It isn't my desire to pick apart your set up, it's just that simple things like enclosure size and one's approach can make a pretty big difference in the response of the tegu.

In my experience, scent is far more important; I've *never* had a feeding bite, even from highly aggressive or highly food-motivated species, without the scent of a food item being present. Defensive bites, sure, but never feeding bites.

I get feeding bites all the time, lol. They come from hungry animals - usually as a result of bad aim (missing the offered prey item, passing the tongs, and catching my hand) or me letting the interval between feedings get too long (I can think of several animals that would lunge at any movement past their enclosure, once their specific time frame was exceeded - the presence of prey items wasn't a factor, they just wanted food). Over the years, I've observed various behaviors at feeding time...including the response to the feeding bucket getting closer and closer to cages/enclosures. Scent vs sight/recognition? I can't say for certain; but monitors, crocodilians, and a variety of snakes have visibly gone into feeding mode as the bucket arrived and the distribution of food commenced. Kind of interesting to watch the building of excitement as I go from cage to cage, or rack to rack.

In my short experience with my B&W tegu, I have found that she (or he) can be fairly agressive when it comes to feeding time as well. I tried feeding in a different container, it did not work. So I went to another method I read about - feeding before they wake up/come out of the hide.
My lights come on at 8am, but I am up much earlier, so I put the food in before lights on. This way, the food is already in place when they wake up, but they do not see you feeding them, therefore the association of "your hand = my food" does not happen.
She is usually in her hide until about 10 anyhow, so if something happens and my morning gets hectic, I do have a bit of a time break. There have been mornings when I end up feeding after she gets out of the hide, and when that happens, WATCH YOUR HAND. Otherwise, she is perfectly fine with me putting my hand in the tank any other time. That seems to be the best way for MY tegu, but it is something worth trying.