Cautionary thread- Michael John (Frognerd.com)

Originally Posted by CwnAnnwn

But that is the exact problem, Mr. Damuth.

Your terms and conditions are no better then the sellers in this matter.



On a flat reading of your conditions from your facebook page which you updated Oct 30, it seems you would have denied refund to him, if the circumstances where reversed.

She was ovulating, either of you knew that, but it is a condition.

And transporting and setting up twice,r as you admitted was a mistake, seems to violate your own TOS.

I get a little worried when you admit it was not the fault of the seller, but yet, your own TOS would have put you in the right in his case.

I just want to point his out, because after reading your TOS and your last post, it almost came off as being dishonest. I know you are a good person, just not coming off that way.

I have my TOS that way to, like many of you, avoid having to replace blatantly negligible customers (who I do my best to avoid selling to in the first place.) If the animal dies within a day or two of arrival, I assume it to have had something underlying that was an issue to begin with and not noticed, or not manifesting, *unless* there was a case of blatant neglect by the buyer (ie- entirely incorrect husbandry, etc.)

The TOS have also been set up dealing with very hardy species (Leopards), that you essentially have to put in a decent amount of effort to end up killing. Before I end up with any of my other species available, I will likely either revamp those TOS, or make ones specific to the more delicate species, since various species do attract different crowds, and those attracted are not always competent to care for them.

In regards to this situation, if I were in the seller's shoes, I would have absolutely refunded. There was a transaction recently, that I included a female free of charge with the purchased male- the buyer contacted me frantic that she had not eaten after a few weeks had passed and that she was concerned. I explained that particular female's typical over-winter cycle/behavior, and told her that if the female should continue fasting, and as a result, end up rather malnourished, to let me know, and I would set her up with a replacement animal. And that was for a female I included free. If the buyer has a good head about them regarding the animals' care, and things just don't go well, I do my best to accommodate the buyer.

Originally Posted by nickolasanastasiou

What is up with the sexing guarantee? I agree with all of that section except the shipping at buyer's expense part for correcting an error the seller would be responsible for.

That could be worded better, thanks for pointing that out. I received animals I actually paid a fairly pretty penny for that ended up incorrectly sexed, but 'he' even had me fooled for a good two months until I noticed ovulation starting. Some, but not many, end up being rather tricky. In that event, then I would send a replacement animal, as long as the original animal were returned. I would pay the shipping for the replacement, that way it nets out. In most cases, I would likely just let them keep the originally shipped animal as well.

Originally Posted by GeckoLabs

That could be worded better, thanks for pointing that out. I received animals I actually paid a fairly pretty penny for that ended up incorrectly sexed, but 'he' even had me fooled for a good two months until I noticed ovulation starting. Some, but not many, end up being rather tricky. In that event, then I would send a replacement animal, as long as the original animal were returned. I would pay the shipping for the replacement, that way it nets out. In most cases, I would likely just let them keep the originally shipped animal as well.

I know that pain. For the species I work with, the revelation of an error can take years.

I would pay for shipment back to me and offer either replacement with me paying shipping to the customer or refund of original total purchase + shipping costs both ways. I see no reason for the buyer to have to pay anything to receive a replacement or return the incorrectly sexed animal.

Making the customer pay for shipping back does not net out by my math. If I am not eating the cost of my mistake, then the customer is and I believe the customer should not have to pay for my sexing mistake on an animal they bought as being of a fully defined sex.

Originally Posted by nickolasanastasiou

I know that pain. For the species I work with, the revelation of an error can take years.

I would pay for shipment back to me and offer either replacement with me paying shipping to the customer or refund of original total purchase + shipping costs both ways. I see no reason for the buyer to have to pay anything to receive a replacement or return the incorrectly sexed animal.

Making the customer pay for shipping back does not net out by my math. If I am not eating the cost of my mistake, then the customer is and I believe the customer should not have to pay for my sexing mistake on an animal they bought as being of a fully defined sex.

I agree in most cases, and that is why I also usually do not ship most of my animals until they're well past the point where they're sexable, as well. Not only for that purpose, but to better choose holdback animals.

I agree that in the case of a blatant and avoidable mis-sexing, then I wouldn't be having the customers paying for that mistake.

If it were the case that I were unsure of an animal, I always disclose that, and either wait it out with the animal here, unless the customer doesn't definitively care which sex it ends up. In the event that it were a blatant sexing error, the way I look at it is there are a few potential scenarios-
1) The customer has the space to keep that animal there and could use it, so I offer them to keep it and get another sent out.

2) The customer is severely limited on space, and can't allot the space to keep the animal, and only has the space for the animal of the desired sex, in which case, I would take the animal back and send a replacement.

The latter is the last resort, to me, for various reasons, which is why I have it worded as customer paying return shipping. Though, since I converse frequently with most of my customers, I would nearly always work something out with them, including and not limiting to covering the return cost.

Originally Posted by GeckoLabs

... but 'he' even had me fooled for a good two months until I noticed ovulation starting.

When did you notice ovulation? How long did you possess that girl before she died? What timeline am I missing here?

That statement seems to contradict your original post where you claimed surprise at seeing ovulation when you opened her up after death.

I've got no dog in this fight, but I honestly cannot see where the seller is at fault. I do commend you, Gecko Labs, for your professional attitude, however, others are correct relative to your own TOS as well as the fact that you actually picked up the animals, had the opportunity to inspect them then and there (and yes, "it was dark" doesn't cut it from a professional, sorry), you accepted them and then subjected them to transport in your possession.

Originally Posted by LauraB

When did you notice ovulation? How long did you possess that girl before she died? What timeline am I missing here?

That statement seems to contradict your original post where you claimed surprise at seeing ovulation when you opened her up after death.

Two different female critters.
Where the OP states having noticed ovulation, after two months (of having what was supposed to be a male), is a different female critter than the female Abronia graminea, of this thread, that passed away.

....

Ah, okay! Thanks, Deb. I had a feeling I was missing something, lol.