Info on substrate sterilization..... please read...

Originally Posted by blissful88

I have lots of tarantulas, and have had many of them die from the bacteria and nematodes in Peat moss from the hardware store.

I have began just recently switching all of my spiders to Eco-Earth because it is a better substrate. Holds moisture way better and doesn't create a mushroom cloud of dust when moved.

I'm not agreeing with either side on this situation. I'm just saying my personal experience with the Peat moss/soil from the hardware stores. I haven't bred dragons before (but will very soon). I say that if you have great success with your current methods then stick with what you know. But I personally will bake my laying substrate, It's what I do with my tarantulas' substrate and I haven't had a problem since beginning the oven/microwave method. My philosophy on the matter is "better safe than sorry".

Blissfull,

I am sorry for your loss as we have also tested other substrates finding the same results, it is the best practice to be safer than sorry.

Believe it or not I had to purchase a Reverse Osmosis from Hydrologic after testing city water and finding outrageous amounts of chemicals in the water. (Chlorine, (Phosphates, Magnesium/Nutrients) and so on.)

I now even bathe my dragons in R.O. water to prevent them from directly absorbing these chemicals through there cloacal opening. Like you said better safe than sorry.

I am also currently working on a project building a Carbon Air exchange system to insure pure air is provided and excess humidity is removed as outdoors their is a constant amount of air flow to accommodate this. It has been difficult in a sense that I am now trying to regulate the temps and humidity to maintain an ambient room temp of 75f with around 15% humidity and will most likely have to purchase a thermo/humidistat timer to get it kicking properly. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Peace, J

Originally Posted by jallenfl

As for being scolded on BD.ORG I have requested they cancel my subscription as I have little patience for there over emotional reactions to debate.

Originally Posted by sallen87

I believe this information is in reference to lay boxes. As many would say they regularly use soil for the egg laying purposes.

Originally Posted by jallenfl

And again Dragonluver, I never read that post you made. My posting was separate from any info you may have posted.

Originally Posted by WebSlave

Sorry, I can't leave this comment unchallenged...

Sorry, fella, but that is NOT your call here. I have asked the moderators to keep a sharp eye out for anyone who appears to be attempting to make this site unpleasant for any other members, and to crack down HARD on this problem.

So to put it bluntly, members who take it upon themselves to tell others that they are not welcome on this site, or attempt to make them FEEL that way, are themselves NOT WELCOME here. So I strongly suggest you take a step back with this sort of attitude.

Pardon me if that is the exact way it was taken. quick explanation. This guy posted a thread that was rude and overly arrogant on info that isnt proven.
Also saying that some of should of not posted because were dont know what were talking about breeders included. As you know i started that thread for further info on lay bins. I felt that i was attacked, personally. also one said he never read my thread as the one said that thread pertained to lay boxes.
I didnt mean he wasn't welcome here, I was more on the lines as you ignorance and rudeness isnt welcome here just like on bd.org. Am I reading his post wrong? was he not ignorant an just plain rude?
It really doesnt even matter to me that this is not a proven fact (does alittle bit) it bothered me how he came on the way he did in a some what abusive manner towards other fauna member.

Originally Posted by hhmoore

Oh, and regarding this statement

I'm going to go out on a limb and answer for Rich - he isn't unhappy with this thread...he's unhappy with some of the behavior in it. There is nothing wrong with discussion and debate, as long as the parties involved can participate maturely and/or professionally. There were some issues on both sides of the topic, but the topic itself is not the problem.

My apologies, i didnt mean what i typed in the way is was taken. As i explained above. It really could of been some extra helpful info (in a way) but the manner it was put out there, is probly why it went the way it did.

Originally Posted by dragonluver83

Pardon me if that is the exact way it was taken. quick explanation. This guy posted a thread that was rude and overly arrogant on info that isnt proven.
Also saying that some of should of not posted because were dont know what were talking about breeders included. As you know i started that thread for further info on lay bins. I felt that i was attacked, personally. also one said he never read my thread as the one said that thread pertained to lay boxes.
I didnt mean he wasn't welcome here, I was more on the lines as you ignorance and rudeness isnt welcome here just like on bd.org. Am I reading his post wrong? was he not ignorant an just plain rude?
It really doesnt even matter to me that this is not a proven fact (does alittle bit) it bothered me how he came on the way he did in a some what abusive manner towards other fauna member.



My apologies, i didnt mean what i typed in the way is was taken. As i explained above. It really could of been some extra helpful info (in a way) but the manner it was put out there, is probly why it went the way it did.

You are still here calling names I already owned up to the fact that my post was a little harsh in the terms of one line. Sorry you are not mature enough to read past it and are blocked by your emotion.

Please read my other post so you can be correctly informed on the research done. As far as dissecting a dragon for testing. Send me a few samples from your stock I will raise them infect them and then kill them for studies as well as letting the bacteria take there own toll and send the dragon into an agonizing death. That is obviously the proof you need. If you are not willing to do this then stop posting about research and read what has already been tested and researched. Because you are not willing to risk this right, or possibly loose money in the research of this. I on the other hand want to cause no unnecessary harm to my dragons as you can already tell.

Again my post had nothing to do with your post on lay bins. I stated in another post (several actually) that I actually just read it this morning and also stated it was good info. Possibly meaning you are not someone I am talking about.

Again I did not post this because of your thread. Read this it is the last time I post this for you.

I also believe (SALLEN87) stated it refers to lay boxes because (REDINK) misinterpreted what the post was originally about thinking that I was referring to soil in incubation, which he is very much correct is a far outdated method given our advances in breeding these days.

Again because you just don't understand I was not saying anything about your post. You also don't understand the (mods.) apparently either in the simple fact that name calling is not tolerated and you have once again continued to do so. The worst is you apologize after you continue do what they warned all of us about. I really believe there is no help for you.

In your best interest read this post and then avoid this thread in further visits to Fauna. Everyone that reads this will most likely see points from both sides but you are truly making yourself look incompetent of reading.

I do not mean it in a name calling way just that your literacy skills may be a bit outdated much as your methods seem to be.

Until you have something to post that is knowledgeable I would avoid posting on this thread. I believe if you read back over this thread you will see some points I have just made, yet you still seem to be the one crying over a situation that has obviously been past dated and left for dead.

Please stop posting unless you are willing to send me those dragons I requested for the further research that you need to sleep well at night. It will need to be hatchlings that have veterinary records showing no infection of parasite or bacteria including but not limited to Coccidia which resides in most specimens on some level. Along with that I will need the contact info for your vet. to verify this as I am not wasting money on unhealthy specimens just to turn around and reestablish infectious problems. I will need genetically sound specimens all of the same age not inbred by you but from different genetic line parents. I believe that 10 will be suitable for this project and in no way am I trying to get over on you, I have no concern in owning your dragons just not willing to kill my dragons for something I already stated in my research will certainly happen if exposed to these environments. I will send you pictures on a daily basis as well as written reports as they grow and subsequently die. I will also list all strains of bacteria and a rough idea of how many I believe to be present at time of death, and exactly how long it took to dominate and kill the host. Along with there activity levels, Feeding regimens, temps, humidity, uvb exposure and the whole deal just to reassure you. This study will be conducted at the University of Florida as I assure you my professors love these little experiments and will be truly intrigued by the chance to do this study along side me. True Lab study and results...

I imagine you are not willing to do this so just stop posting so people don't have to read your nonsense. Yes my post was harsh, one line and you still can not shut up about it.

Leave this thread taking no knowledge with you. As you cant possibly understand the level I am on with what I do. Though I have tried to better inform you I am left at a stand still do to you I.Q. level not being able to compensate for the confusion of your foot in your mouth.

J

p.s. People can read through the bull and you meant exactly what you wrote. "I assure you that you are no more welcome here than on BD.ORG." And as well stated you are making a good point of yourself, though I welcome you to post if you have anything that is worth reading rather than pointless chatter.

Quit with the thinly concealed barbs, please, or I will just have to ban both of you to prove I am serious about reducing that sort of crap in the discussion forums. I don't care who started it, and who is only defending themselves, and who thinks the other is arrogant.

If you want to test my resolve, then here's your chance.

Roger.....

jallenfl,

I totally agree with you on the whole inbreeding think weakening the gentics of the captive dragons over there. Whether or not it is totally affecting the immune system I'm sketchy about, I believe over time they would develop their own defences on the "unatural' soil being used as substrate for lay boxes.

Mainly due to:

If breeders are using soil as a laybox for captive generations and those hatchlings survive.
Those hatchlings in adulthood are them put into the breeding program, surviving to adulthood would mean it's immune syatem has dealt with the micro-organism exposure from it's embryotic stage and carried that on through adulthood.
This in turn would be passed on to the next generation.
So infact not exposing them to this would turn them into specimens that could not survive outside of a sterile environment. We would be infact creating a "boy in the buble" situation.
This would be detrimental to the captive programs you guys have over there.

So in part as you stated already the inbreeding and poor genetic would be the number one culprit to the death and poor health of dragons in captivity. Creating a situation where you are trying to solve one cause (juvenile death) by adding another factor which would inturn further add to the weaken stance of captive dragons won't hep at all. Quite the opposite in fact. It may save lots of dragons on the short term but in the long term it will cause more problems than it would fix. Let nature take it's course, if the hatchlings are too weak to survive let them go as they will only add to the problem by letting them survive and propagating the weak genetics/immunse system through the captive breeding program. Survival of the fittest do to speak.

Harsh but this is natures way and it only humans with their "advanced' sense of morals and ethics that do not follow this, everything else on the planet does. It is only us as a species that propogate the survival of the weak (not a good or bad thing just fact).

Originally Posted by red ink

jallenfl,

I totally agree with you on the whole inbreeding think weakening the gentics of the captive dragons over there. Whether or not it is totally affecting the immune system I'm sketchy about, I believe over time they would develop their own defences on the "unatural' soil being used as substrate for lay boxes.

Mainly due to:

If breeders are using soil as a laybox for captive generations and those hatchlings survive.
Those hatchlings in adulthood are them put into the breeding program, surviving to adulthood would mean it's immune syatem has dealt with the micro-organism exposure from it's embryotic stage and carried that on through adulthood.
This in turn would be passed on to the next generation.
So infact not exposing them to this would turn them into specimens that could not survive outside of a sterile environment. We would be infact creating a "boy in the buble" situation.
This would be detrimental to the captive programs you guys have over there.

So in part as you stated already the inbreeding and poor genetic would be the number one culprit to the death and poor health of dragons in captivity. Creating a situation where you are trying to solve one cause (juvenile death) by adding another factor which would inturn further add to the weaken stance of captive dragons won't hep at all. Quite the opposite in fact. It may save lots of dragons on the short term but in the long term it will cause more problems than it would fix. Let nature take it's course, if the hatchlings are too weak to survive let them go as they will only add to the problem by letting them survive and propagating the weak genetics/immunse system through the captive breeding program. Survival of the fittest do to speak.

Harsh but this is natures way and it only humans with their "advanced' sense of morals and ethics that do not follow this, everything else on the planet does. It is only us as a species that propogate the survival of the weak (not a good or bad thing just fact).

I would agree with you 100% except I am left at a stand still in a since.

You see many dragons carry potentially harmful organisms that directly harm the immune system with little ability to ever form immunities to such problems in future cases.

By simply removing the chance right out of the egg for transferring these problems to the young we will greatly improve rate of off-spring.

Now I am not saying we should remove every harmful situation as this would surely, as you said lead to detrimental effects that would need to be corrected later. (FOR YEARS) I am only hoping to truly express the possibility of dangers and help those greatly reduce the chance of un-needed death and loss of there dragons.

Now as far as humans go I am in complete agreement and I am not trying to sound cold in this so please don't think I am some evil SOB.

Lets assume many genetic factors that we pass to offspring: First though lets consider our intelligence and the fact that our medical abilities save these lives and they usually live long and prosperous lives from the start to the end with little consequence.

If humans were in a different field and were controllably bred by a higher source than ourselves we would surely dispose of many genetic defects readily.

Diabetes for instance is a genetically inherited trait as well as something a child can develop early on from improper diet and so on (sugar balances causing spikes in insulin levels). Either way if these people were limited to breeding this factor would deff. dissipate over time. I have this problem in my family lines and don't mean to offend anyone in making my point as this is not about breeding humans but simply my way of expressing my complete understanding of where it is you are coming from.

Peace, J