Jeff Houston (The Drama that really isn't)

Here is the thread
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...&threadid=9966

Now again I apologize. But it seems it is not good enough. So let me make myself clear.

I noticed that a couple of the posters in his thread registered within fifteen minutes of each other. They posted within fifteen minutes of each other. They both posted their first ever post in the Jeff houston thread. And they both have not been back.
I pondered and pondered what is going on. Next thing I know I get an e-mail or a pm from someone else wondering the same thing. So I decide to e-mail or pm weblsave and ask what is going on. Meanwhile I also decided that I better post and ask what is up on the post. Maybe I could get an answer from the gentlemen.

Meanwhile webslave posted that they are different IP blah blah blah. I was totally fine with it and in fact was relived that I do not have to get into it on another thread. Getting into these threads takes a lot of energy. Meanwhile I also decided to mention to webslave that It could still be possible to post with two different ip in within 15 minutes. I DID NOT mean these two could still be doing it. I meant that some people somewhere can still do it. I know I can post with Maryland IP and post with AOL which will show Virginia.

Also if you look at my first post in his thread I wrote
Either Jeff called you both at the same time and told you to post here.
OR
You are possibly the same person.

meaning. Either Jeff called them at the same time and told them to post (Which is acceptable as long as they are his customers) or it might have been an over zealous customer.

If you look at my first thread. I posted only FACTS

FACT
They both registered on the same day.
They both replied within fifteen minutes of each other.
They both posted ONLY in his thread.
Fact - those ARE a lot of coincidences.

look at the ps at the bottom of my first post....I made it clear that I think it is okay to call your customers and have them post.

another fact.....I did not know these two people lived in different States until Webslaves second post.


Anyway here are the e-mails -- e-mails sent to me are my property. I do with them as I wish.

it is because I apologized. how many times did I reply to your thread?
Three times. And two of them were really meant as an apology.
1st post Raise a flag
2nd post Admit my mistake but tell webslave it could be done.Not by the posters...but by someone else.
3rd post Totally admit I made a mistake

My new post. (more drama) Show the world what is going on...get this thing off my chest.
Let them all wallop me if they want. I was wrong. Let me get fired from moderating if need be. I ws wrong. I made a mistake and I admit to it.
by the way..I only moderate the classifieds. I do not moderate the BOI.
And yes I only speak for myself.
=====================
Ritchie Luna
www.RitchieReptiles.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Houston
To: Ritchie Luna
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: BOI


A real class act. I am so glad that there are "professional" people who still choose to keep reptiles. Dealing with the low end makes this hobby tiresome at times.
You email speaks for itself, "Mr. Brains" I won't bother poking holes in it, it is obvious your little ego can't handle that.
I could go on all night about your "drama" statement, who posted for the world to see? Who posts 24/7 on the forum? (may I suggest a life?) I handled the situation like a man, I emailed you right away. (where's the drama?) How many posts have you put on that thread? I have not bothered to point out all this BS on the thread because of the drama factor. Yeah, it really looks like I am the drama queen here! LMAO!
The only part of your email that I find interesting is this, "Let me know if you really want more drama." That sounds like some kind of elementary school threat, is it?
I hope you speak only for yourself and not Fauna.
Jeff Houston
-----Original Message-----
From: Ritchie Luna <Ritchie@RitchieReptiles.com>
To: Jeff Houston <poolfxr@integrity.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: BOI


gee I guess I better explain
"either Jeff called you both"
meaning you called them to come post.....and if you look at my ps....I clearly state that it is okay.
"or you are both the same person"
meaning someone must have posted twice in their zeal to show the world what a good guy you are.

can you understand this
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH HAVING CUSTOMERS POST
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH CALLING CUSTOMERS TO COME POST.

there I hope you did not miss it that time.

"sorry Jeff.....hey webslave this is till a scam right?"
Hello Mr. Brains. I already knew it was not a scam. I was just telling webslave it could be done.
People can post with totally different IP in fifteen minutes. It was not so in this case but it could be done.

Hello Brains I DID NOT HAVE ACCESS TO THE STATES UNTIL WEBSLAVE SAID SO.
Me saying it could be done meant just that. I was not saying that is what these people did. Webslave already cleared that up.
I was saying it could be done. I can post with a maryland IP and a Virginia IP.

I freaking apologized.
Then webslave went and explained his situation and what he thought.
You think the BOI is degraded? Then leave.
I Apologized..and I feakin meant it.
I did not apologize and suggest there still may be a problem.
I apologized and suggested that it could still be done. Not in this particular thread but it still could be done.

How is your reputation tarnished. Show me . Showw me a person who will no longer buy from you. I apologized. Webslave backed you up. That shows the world that I was wrong and that you are truly an honest herper.

You do not want all this BOI drama attached to your name. Then leave things be. I apologized and meant it. Webslave explained his position. But you apperanlty want more Drama.

Let me know if you really want more drama.

He told me it was a coincidence..I did not keep going. I just mentioned it could be done. I did not say that is what your customers said....you know what. enough of this bull ****. You say you do not want drama but you keep harping on it... I apologized but you keep harping on it. Fine you get the drama that you are pretending you do not want
=====================
Ritchie Luna
www.RitchieReptiles.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Houston
To: Ritchie Luna
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: BOI


Your comments were off topic... that was series of posts that should have been in an email between you and webslave. Lets look at your words:
"Either Jeff called you both at the same time and told you to post here.
OR
You are possibly the same person."
That is your quote. No, there is no insinuation there is there? Maybe these guys are buddies who both own my tegus? Maybe one called the other? Why start accusations that are groundless? According to YOU I either was busy on the phone or these are fake posts, both of your assumptions are WRONG.
The fact that this is the "second" one you got wrong is what bothers me most about your email. Don't learn from your mistakes? It should have been clear the first time to check your facts FIRST, not after. I have seen you bust people, cheers! That is great. What would have been the problem with waiting, emailing webslave and checking your facts? Where was the post going to go? Why the need to open mouth and insert foot? Is it too much to expect that you check your facts?
Lets see your apology:
"Sorry bout that Jeff ......

Hey webslave.
Actually if you have access to cable and dial up all those things would not be too hard."

That makes me feel better, "sorry Jeff... hey webslave, this is still a scam right?" So you apologize and then suggest that there still may be a problem... nice.
You had access to the states, ask WS. He posted that the states were different, you suggested that there still might be a chance that there was something fishy. Even WS told you it was too much work so it must be a coincidence.
As for people "backing me up" it was not needed. You last post;
Anyway like I said....
My apologies jeff.
I was not insinuating you too be the bad guy.
I was just trying to point out the coincidence.
and quite frankly I am SO glad it is just a coincidence.
these boards take a lot of energy out of a person.

Good luck and happy herping

That post would have ended it. Instead WS went on to make you a champion for the rights of us all, a real life super hero. Did you degrade the BOI, yes. There is no question. Like I told you, I would leave the next step up to you and WS. I had faith, albeit misplaced that you guys could handle this. WS made a choice, it is his site... his choice. WS words:

"And I am quite willing to accept the mistakes he may make on occasion. The tradeoff is that I am pretty damned certain that all the shots on target will greatly outweigh and pay for many times over those that he might flub here or there."

That is all well and good. It is not you or WS that need to worry about trade offs. It is not for you to decide what outweighs what or what amount of tarnish is OK on MY reputation. That degrades the BOI. When innocents get tarnished what is the point? I think it is great that people know they are being watched. Making fake posts sucks! I just disagree that the point should be made at MY expense. Make the point when people get caught doing something wrong. The bottomline is that I don't want all this BS and drama attached to my name. That is NOT what the BOI was about. Is it degraded, yes.

WS told you that it was a coincidence, you continued. That is where the doubt was. He tells you it is fine, you keep going. (asking about cable vs dial up)

As for me asking people to post there. I asked one guy, Dave Lee to post there. He emailed me to get a rat supplier reference and asked me how things were. I told him about the thread and where to buy more rats. The rest of those people, many who have posted before and have old fauna accounts posted because they know me. (imagine that, a good guy getting good guy feedback) Sorry I can't provide you with lots of drama.

Had you said, "sorry, next time I will check stuff out" that would have had some weight and been the end. As it is, you admit that you have done this before, you and WS think it is a good idea and you are sorry??? WTF? What are you sorry about? If it happened again tomorrow you would do the same thing! Gee, that is real repentance! You must feel really bad about all this, huh?

You asked me what I wanted? A real response, one that would not try to pin this on me. A real apology, one that took some responsibility. You are like a kid that got caught by the teacher, she made you say sorry... you'll do it again the first chance you get.

Why not just be cool and admit it was a bad idea? Instead of making you the "shark" WS should be telling you to keep on looking for problems BUT check the details with him BEFORE you post. Is that too much to ask?








-----Original Message-----
From: Ritchie Luna <Ritchie@RitchieReptiles.com>
To: Jeff Houston <poolfxr@integrity.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: BOI


You say my comments were off topic, unrelated and patently wrong.
Actually my comments were an observation of facts,
It is fact they registered the same day.
It is fact that they both just made a comment in your thread.
It is fact that they posted within fifteen minutes of each other.
It is fact that they both only posted in just your thread.
It is also fact that this has happened in the past (with other people) and that it has Amost Always (your only the second one I got wrong) proven that the poster was the same person.
But I gave it the benefit of the doubt and said it could be a coincidence.

I did not imply any impropriety on your part.
I thought maybe it was the same customer posting twice.
I never ever thought you were posting for yourself.
Calling customers to have them post is acceptable. (check out the ps on my first post.)

Perhaps you did not read the posts...perhaps you should read again.
Because you are offering me invoices when I already apologized. You tell me they are from different states (a fact I do not have access to) but I still apologized.

My actions did not degrade the BOI.
what did my actions accomplish?
1. It shows the world that someone is watching.
2. It shows the world that "the watcher" is also being watched.
3. It reminds the world not to posts under different pseudonames.
4. It shows the world that you must be truly honest if you got me apologizing and the webslave backing you up.
5. It shows the world I am only human.
6. It shows the world that the checks and balances on the BOI work. It shows the world that bad and good posts are scrutinized. ( So they do not have to worry about bogus posts)

You say "webslave made it clear that they are not the same person" then you say "my psts are still there to cast doubt"
Well if webslave made it clear...why would my post cast doubt?
And if my post cast doubt......then how can you say the webslave made it clear?

Anyway I did think before I posted. I thought....hey these are too many coincidences....and in the past it has been proven that people got different accounts and posted for themselves.

I already swallowed my pride and publicly apologized. So what do you want?
If you think the BOI is degraded......then tell those people posting in your thread to stop.
Tell them their posts mean nothing. Tell them me admitting I am wrong means nothing.
Tell them webslave making it clear that the posts in your name are legit means nothing.
=====================
Ritchie Luna
www.RitchieReptiles.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Houston
To: Ritchie@RitchieReptiles.com
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 2:12 PM
Subject: BOI


I wanted to email you and let you know how unfair and inappropriate your post was on the BOI. You as a "moderator" should know better than to "think out loud" on the forum. Your comments were off topic, unrelated and patently wrong.
So, two people from different states posted in close proximity to each other. You feel that is justification to cast doubt on the legitimacy of those who post and my reputation? Do you want the phone numbers of both individuals? How about copies of their invoices? Emails? To imply that there was ANY impropriety on my part is just negligent.
Why didn't you ask the webmaster PRIVATELY about your concerns prior to besmirching my reputation. To imply that people need to use fake names to post about me implies that my reputation either does not exist or is in need of fake help! The webslave made it clear that these are not the same person, unfortunately your negative posts are still there, to cast doubt.
Your actions have degraded the integrity of the BOI. The very thing it is there for! It is supposed to be a place where people can find FACTS on people before getting screwed. I am one of the good guys, I'll go farther and say I am one of the best. My customer service is unmatched. I give full customer service to people who don't even buy their animals from me! I do this for love of the hobby and love of the people in it. If I did this for a living and produced 1000's of animals or if I brokered people's junk my name would be out there. I don't have 1000's of customers because I don't produce 1000's of animals. I produce the best with the time and space I have. That is why your insinuation was so misplaced. I am not a store, importer, or broker. I don't need you discrediting the customers that I do have.
You know as well as I do that this business is about reputation. I have a wonderful reputation among tegu people. I am out of tegus as of 2003 and yet I still answer 20+ emails a week. (and that is during the cooling season, I will get 20+ a day during breeding season) I have now focused my time and space on ball pythons. This year I will have poss hets for sale among other things. The only chance I have of selling my poss hets is my reputation. The same reason I only buy poss hets from the Sutherlands is the same reason your posts are damaging... credibility.
I ask you to think before you post, ask webslave BEFORE discrediting people's posts. It is not fair to them and not fair to the person who is being inquired about. The tegu people are a small industry inside an industry. Don't be surprised if other people post about me, maybe for the first time. I know that MANY of the people who bought babies from me are friends and that is how they heard of me. Is it wrong that they tell their friend to go and post about me?
With so many scams and freaks in this business I hope you would not want to discredit a "good guy" and thus cause some scum to get a sale. The people who have good reputations deserve them.
I am not a fan of people requesting that things be taken off the BOI. In this case, I will leave it to you and webslave. If you feel your comments were not a mistake, and were deserved then by all means leave them.
I always enjoy it when you bust people. Now I have to wonder how many people have been innocent but have been made to look guilty. That should not happen, not to the few people who care in this industry.
Thank you for you time,
Jeff Houston

PS- Please let me know if you would like contact people for either of the people you inquired about. If you want to check on me, feel free to contact the Sutherlands and ask them about me.

Yes he is entitled to get upset. And yes I got upset to. Now you all can harp in and bust my b@lls and tell me I am wrong. I already knew that. I should have just left it as a private message to webslave. But instead I posted. I was wrong. I still am wrong. there you got your drama.

You asked me what I wanted? A real response, one that would not try to pin this on me. A real apology, one that took some responsibility. You are like a kid that got caught by the teacher, she made you say sorry... you'll do it again the first chance you get.


now where is it....I know I can find it.

Anyway like I said....
My apologies jeff.
I was not insinuating you too be the bad guy.
I was just trying to point out the coincidence.
and quite frankly I am SO glad it is just a coincidence.
these boards take a lot of energy out of a person.

Good luck and happy herping


Why not just be cool and admit it was a bad idea? Instead of making you the "shark" WS should be telling you to keep on looking for problems BUT check the details with him BEFORE you post. Is that too much to ask?
It was a bad idea. And trust me. Being wrong in front of milions of people is not my idea of fun. Apologizing and admiting my mistake is not fun....but it has to be done.



Jeff your reputations is fine. If anyone reptutation was hurt by my post.... Let me tell you ....It was my own reputation that was hurt by my own post. If people can not see that you have had nothing but good dealings....then they do not desrve to buy from you. If people judge you because they fail to see that I made a mistake.....then they do not deserve to buy from you.

Once again I was wrong. I admit it. I take responsibility for my actions. I speak for myself and myself alone.


**edited to say.. The e-mails were posted to show what an @ss I am. May the gas of me posting this stuff make this fire burn itself out quickly. So go ahead and tell me I am wrong call me names or what have you. I already learned my lesson and am moving on. I am not looking to get supposrt. I am looking for my "flogging"**

When I read that thread I noticed the same thing. I admit that I was going to email one of you three and ask about it, but a shark is faster then a sun fish. I hope Jeff accepts your apology and that this thing dies down as quickly as it started. I am also glad to hear that it was a coincedence because it made me wonder if people would actually do something like that. I guess they would, but that's why the world has people like you.

Just my 0.02

thanks drizz..............but

I am not looking to get supposrt. I am looking for my "flogging"

oh yeah I said I apologize and I take responsibility.
I forgot to add that I was TOTALLY UNPROFFESIONAL


__________________
The above statements are just my opinion.

Ritchie Luna

I can post from different countries without ever switching what internet service I use. And I can do it without a second of thought.

Its never simple if you have someone knowledgeable to know how to abuse a system.

It's kinda hard to scold someone for doing what they feel is/was right to do. Don't you think? If it's a flogging you want then you will have to wait til I find my whip or my belt.

It's not that big of a deal. I don't think either one of your reputations will be tarnished by this. It's probably pretty easy to become a little cynical when you read about some of the "bad guys" on the BOI. I had a couple bad transactions this year and now I find myself being suspicious of everyone I don't know. It's unfortunate but that's reality.
I think it will be pretty obvious to anyone who reads the BOI that both of you are good guys. Everybody makes mistakes. You owned up to yours and gave a sincere apology. I don't think there's anything else left for you to do. Jeff can accept your apology or choose not to. It doesn't really matter. You'll both continue to be good people who occasionally screw up....you're both human.

Chris

I am not looking to get support. I am looking for my "flogging"

Thankfully not many people know what I look like... So, if you ask this as a favor... At some point in the future, I will sneak up and whack you in the face with a pie at a show as punishment...

While I can see some slight initial irritation over the situation where the credibility of the individuals supporting him was, for a very short period of time, called into... not even question really, more mild initial observation... It seems, by the time-line I can see anyway, that you had already admitted that there was an inclination to jump the gun on your part and, in this particular instance, it wasn't appropriate... You apologized for your fairly minor actions quite clearly and made it very easy to see that the mild suspicion was unfounded... this time...

I'm not certain why Mr. Houston thinks his reputation has in some manner been tarnished by this insignifigant and minor occurance but it seems obvious from the e-mail exchange that was posted that he does feel it has in some manner damaged his ability to do buisness... I can, to some degree, understand the initial "Crap, there's an inaccurate post that's related indirectly to me, I'd better avoid the splatter if this ends up hitting the fan." simply because the situation did seem somewhat dubious and EVERYONE who reads the board for more than a week or so realizes that most coincidences aren't coincidental...

But since the post made never called into question HIS credibility, rather that of the posters in a very mild manner... and THEY don't seem particularly upset... and the apology was seemingly made before Mister Houston EVEN STARTED READING THE THREAD...

How many times does it need to be said that the impression people get of someone on the BOI is not made by other people... it's made by the person themselves in how they respond to any given situation... React too quickly or to an unwarranted degree and it doesn't look bad for anyone but yourself... Ritchie realizes it, he's made it clear that he feels his posting, in some tiny manner may have damaged his credibility when he spots those coincidences... How did he deal with it? He apologized very easily and with a great deal of honesty, he made sure any of those individuals who might read the thread and be slightly confused about the conclusions he and Rich came to were not negative and I can guarantee that there WILL be a slight modicum of additional caution when situations arise in the future.

In other words, he dealt with a mistake in a responsible and appropriate manner that shows more positive things than negative about his character. I think I've said it before but... I'd much rather be around someone who has made the occasional mistake and dealt with it appropriately than someone who has never made one. At least I know that the individual who made a mistake and fixed it will do right if something does accidently go wrong. That can be a buisness deal, husbandry issues or jumping the gun on voicing a suspicion (not an accusation, a suspicion, there is a very important nuance), what matters is that they make good in the end.

Now... Ritchie has certainly admitted that he made a mistake... and admitted it again... and again... and then several more times for good measure. He dealt with the situation in a responsible manner three times now; in those e-mailed responses, on the thread in question and again here.

Mister Houston, I think that there has been sufficient input from people reading the board to substantiate a claim that no damage whatsoever has been done to your reputation as a result of Ritchies actions, can you now admit that YOUR response to the situation was stronger than was truely warranted by the situation?

As a collective group, we've seen any number of people get their reputations damaged, not by the accusations or posts of others, but by their own conduct. Mister Houston and Mister Luna both seem to be credible and honest individuals, is it worth the damage that one or both of your reputations might suffer if you decide to go at one another's throats?

Even when specifics about the industry are never called into play, a reputation can be damaged in some manner when people make mistakes and conduct themselves inappropriately. I got a bit irritated over nothing a while back and got into a very short lived and foolish pissing contest with Jeff Lewis, a man known for quality animals and knowledgeable advice, over the wording of a response. I'm certain that some people took away a bit of a negative taste and formed a negative impression of me after reading my comments, as well they should, I was behaving like a child. The entire situation in Tampa that is so often rehashed and dredged up has left a patina of suspicion and guilt over the entire area of the country, even people who were never involved. Very little of that was because of accusations made against someone else, it was generally the conduct of the individual posting making themselves look bad.

Nobody wants to deal with a person who can't handle a bit of insignifigant altercation without exploding or making the situation worse. Nobody wants to deal with anyone who refuses to admit their mistakes.

Ritchie has admitted that his actions were premature and overzealous and apologized.

Now I wait to see what further response his apology is met with in order to form my opinion of the other individual involved. I'd bet I'm not alone.

Seamus.... I've always told Ritchie that I would do almost anything for him, just because of the respect I have for him.... with that in mind....

Ritchie.... You A$$h0lX!@! Haven't you ever heard the word PATIENCE?? One email to the WS would have solved this whole thing.... the problem wasn't that you made a simple mistake.... the problem was it shouldn't have been made to begin with! Why should Jeff have to have his rep tarnished ONE IOTA for something that was (as it turned out) purely coincidental?? I've never done business with Jeff, but, I agree with every word he said in every email he posted....
Ritchie.... If you had just apologized, without the Popeye-like snide remarks, this would have vanished.... but nooooo.... you have to bring up the fact that it COULD have been done, and, my favorite, was....

....Fine you get the drama that you are **pretending** you do not want....

You have just accused him of wanting to start a fight with you when it was YOU that started this mess....
When Jeff says you really shouldn't "think out loud".... you should take that to heart! Get your facts FIRST, before you have to make ANY apologies.... the job you're doing and the professionalism you do them with.... are admirable! But, please don't let it get to your head??? These threads stay here FOREVER!! Why should ANYBODY have to know that someone, someday, will read this thing and think that MAYBE you were right, but, you just didn't catch them?? It's really not fair....

Just so everyone knows.... I was ASKED to do this, in a private PM by some UNKNOWN person (hint hint).... I hope I did a good enough job for you??

....Neil

Ritchie
You made a mis-judgement[possibly]
you admitted your possibly mis-judgement
What makes a man a man is...his ability to make a mistake and then take credit for it
What you were doing was for the better of us all [trying to find the truth Mulder]
And as far as popeyed snide remarks, sometimes in the heat we all react out of instinct [right Neil???]
Take care