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Old 10-23-2012, 08:35 PM   #161
Lucille
Quote:
Originally Posted by adder View Post
The three last posts are akin to creationism arguments from Christian Fundamentalists. I clearly cannot reason with any of them - ever!
If making "noise" wins an argument, you definitely win hands-down!
Quote:
Originally Posted by adder View Post
Skinthedirt (Emily Paine).
You have not displayed any knowledge of Australian law or venomoid surgery. You are effectively unknown in herpetology.
Operations performed by myself were done legally. You may not agree with the law, but so be it. To argue with you would be like dealing with a Christian Fundamentalist!
Description of our venomoid operations as subpar is not supported by the evidence, which is a perfect record of results and happy healthy snakes.
Mark O’Shea has no credibility whatsoever, especially noting his own appalling snakebite and mishandling history so to claim anything written by him is of value does not merit a response. His claim venomoids regenerate venom is patently false. He has no expertise on the subject at all.
Finally, can you please advise me as to what expertise you have in performing venomoid surgery including how many operations you have conducted and the results of all.
To Imajacobian, you wrote:
“Why avoid the questions. Simply post some pics of the operation showing it is simple and answer a few questions.”
My response is I published a big paper in 2004 and have a devenomized venomoid snake FAQ site as well. Both images are shown and all sensible questions are answered as well. As it appears you have not seen these the link is provided here:
http://www.smuggled.com/VenFAQ1.htm
Now to Snakehandler.
A few facts you have omitted or lied about!
1 – We have statements including from a former employee of yours that you have sought to send people to our educational shows for the purposes of stealing and committing other crimes. That is not ethical business practice on your part. You have also confirmed the same on several occasions by your own statements.
2 – We have statements including from a former employee of yours that you are corruptly protected from prosecution for criminal offences by your friend Glenn Sharp of the DSE, corroborated by statements from another DSE employee.
3 - We have statements including from a former employee of yours that Mr Watharow of Snakehandler, had several vials of Tiger Snake anti-venom from a bite sustained when in charge of the business Snakehandler. You have reported the same yourself on other chat forums, so to try to deny this fact now is scandalous.
4 - We have statements including from a former employee of yours that you had a large dangerous Mulga Snake escape from your facility in a suburban area that was not recaptured and remains at large. That constitutes a serious criminal offence.
5 - We have statements including from a former employee of yours that you have actively stalked and committed criminal offences against our company.
6 - We have statements including from a former employee of yours that your snakes have repeatedly bitten members of the public at displays, which contradicts your claims above.
7 – You have no legal protocol to deal with the event of a venomous snake bite in one of your displays. Your risk management protocol only involves administering first aid and hospitalization but not removal of the venomous bite risk (either the snakes themselves or the venom glands), the latter being our proven effective means of dealing with the problem of venomous snake displays in public and the previously inherent (and now illegal) risks, noting that unlike your relatively new company, our established business has never had owner or staff taken to hospital for snakebites in any circumstances, even though our expertise and handling is of far greater extent.
8 – You have created and/or posted on hate facebook pages and admitted in court recently that you had lied about myself to a global public audience for the purposes of attacking our established education business.
9 – We do not tape up mouths of non-venomous reptiles, be they crocodiles or snakes, when it is not required and there is no credible safety risk (even in event of bite), beyond what would be described as superficial wounds and as covered by the terms of our business and bookings. There is no breach of any law in not doing so. You are lying to claim otherwise! Other demonstrators display same or similar reptiles in similar ways. You are free to market your business as not allowing the public to hold reptiles, as in hands-off displays, as you have done recently on other forums, but we shall continue to do hands-on reptile shows that let people handle the animals for as long as it remains legal.
10 – Your claim your staff are trained and experienced is a lie. You yourself have been licenced to handle snakes in any form less than ten years and so lack experience in the relevant field!
11 – You telephoned me seeking venomoid snakes in 2005. I declined your request. You decided to wage war against us from then on. We would rather you go back to where you came from!
12 – I do not attack your business in any way.
We do rebut false claims you repeatedly make against us and when appropriate point out the safety issues relating to yours and other displays.
If and when people seek to compare businesses, be it yours or any others, I quite properly point out that our business that has run longer than yours and all others in our market and we have a perfect safety record and your business and many others do not, noting I have been in the reptile education business longer than all other mobile displayers trading in our market. Many of our clients are concerned about the safety of their children and others and we make sure they are aware of where risks lie and how we have taken the issue seriously by devenomizing our snakes to both remove risk of serious venomous bite and to comply with the 2004 O H and S Act.
13 - You have been the source of many false claims against us, including on your various “Hate sites” and we have had some deleted as a result. We have not engaged in tit-for-tat false claims against your enterprise, even though the urge to rebut your incessant false claims remains.
14 – In terms of venomous snake displays in Victoria, Phil Fisher of Worksafe issued a ruling in 2006 that it is illegal to display venomous snakes not made venomoid. It is a sensible ruling and one I agree with. That you have not been prosecuted for breaching the Worksafe and other acts, including the Wildlife act, is scandalous and a matter of deep concern among a large number of people within the reptile fraternity, including among your ex-employees. As one concerned about animal welfare I am not happy that you continue to engage in extreme acts of animal cruelty without risk of prosecution, including the use and advocacy of brutal metal tongs to handle venomous snake species. My public opposition to metal tongs to attack snakes pre-dates your lurching into the reptile business by two years and is common among experienced snake handlers. In your case the opposition is more vehement in that you also advocate the use of tongs in public forums and go further and engage in snake handler courses where you teach novices to use these barbaric devices, the result being a greater frequency of fatal and near fatal snake bites and snakes injured at time of capture.
15 – You state your employee Paul Fisher was not envenomated by a dangerous Brown Snake when bitten. You have not stated the obvious which is you could only ascertain this by having the man hospitalized and tested using equipment you did not possess, and that it is standard for anyone to be rushed to hospital in the event of a bite from this highly venomous species. To do otherwise would be reckless in the extreme. Fact is Fisher’s handling was at fault and as employer you are at fault for not ensuring your handlers can competently handle the said snakes. To allege the snakes were unduly stressed at the time as a reason for the bite is patently ridiculous.
16 – You wrote: “what happened prior to me purchasing the business is totally out of my control, unknown to me and of no consequence to my operations.” Which contradicts your detailed knowledge of these events posted by yourself on other forums.

17 (a) – We have statements including from a former employee of yours that you unlawfully collected fauna in Queensland and illegally imported it to Victoria and have not been prosecuted for this offence and others.

17 (b) – I have never lied about yourself in any way. Not only have you lied about myself and my business many times, but you have also admitted to doing so in court on two separate occasions!

18 – Now I suggest you and your lackeys stop stalking, harassing and posting false and defamatory statements against myself and allow us to deal with our core business of wildlife research, education and conservation including through the only guaranteed safe venomous snake shows in Australia.

19 – Finally, and not for the first time, you are again requested to cease and desist from illegally using our registered trademarks in any way to bootleg our business and clients or engage in any other forms of misleading and deceptive conduct, including by getting others to do this for you or as a means to attack or undermine our lawful education business. This includes your reliance on other trademark bootleggers to divert our clients to your enterprise via unlawful misleading and deceptive conduct.

Thank You!

Snakeman
My words come from decades as a medical professional.
Again, no surgeon is 100%.

A confession: Sometimes, and I know, it is a fault, I feel so strongly about critter welfare, that while I post from my heart, I sometimes ignore the little voice within me that tells me to step back, and tell others so that they may lend their expertise as well. This is a community with so many that can help, and are so very qualified in their experience, and opinion. Some have already posted thoughtful comments here.
Tomorrow morning, since it has been a long day, I will look for Australian newspapers, attorneys, zoos, surgeons, snake hook manufacturers, and Christian Fundamentalist organizations, send them a link to this thread, and let them weigh in. If they have additional questions for Mr. Hoser, I am sure they can find him.
 
Old 10-23-2012, 10:12 PM   #162
Lucille
Anyone familiar with any appropriate Australian people and publications to help me start off, please send me a PM.
 
Old 10-24-2012, 02:50 AM   #163
Snakehandler
Once again Mr. hoser I am not attacking you, however I have made copies of this for my lawyers so we can investigate slander and defamation.

As mentioned in our county court case, I strongly deny each and every claim you make, you failed to produce evidence against me that I court would accept, your statements are not legally taken, if they were I would have been charged by now, I have never and will never request venomoids as I do not agree with them, I have never and will never attend a show of another demonstrator, I have never and will never attempt to steal anything, I have never and will never attack or destroy equipment or animals.

You make these claims as though they are real, but far from it.......they are only real to you....you will again attack me, make more false claims and slander me further, all of which you made a promise to the County Court of Victoria, that you would not do.

My staff was bitten while removing a wild snake, he was not bitten by a captive, so precautionary measures are always taken for Health and Safety reasons. You seem to have an intimate knowledge of my business policies and procedures, where and how did you obtain a copy?

No person, EVER, has been bitten at a show, display, course or event that my business has conducted.

Mr Watherow was NEVER an employee of mine, but the former owner of the business, what happened to him had to be prior to me taking over the business and has NO bearing on my company and its safety record.

I am not attacking you, will not attack you and find your defense by making false claims to be laughable....however as mentioned this has been forwarded to add to my lawyers workload so that we can determine our next course of action.....once again for those here reading this.......all your claims against me have been thrown out of court as baseless, I strongly deny each and every claim and stand by the safety record stated.

I oppose venomous based on the same legislation that I stand by with docking dogs tails, since I entered the demonstrators realm in 2005 it has been an illegal act and I believe nothing substitutes for quality training, a well versed understanding of consequences and of course ensuring safety procedures are followed

BTW, I have NEVER lost an animal, anywhere, anytime, all my returns are filed, I have been inspected and everything tallies up......to claim that I gave poached wildlife is a serious claim, again unverifiable, again unproven and slanderous.....during my inspections all my records stood as true and correct and all animals were from legal sources.

I hope, but sincerely doubt, that you will focus on the point of the discussion which is the right and wrong of venomoiding, not publicly attacking others who have a difference of opinion
 
Old 10-24-2012, 04:17 AM   #164
Snakehandler
Sorry I oppose venomoids.......
 
Old 10-24-2012, 05:05 AM   #165
Snakehandler
Oh and you don't attack me, so what is your post doing....
 
Old 10-24-2012, 08:34 AM   #166
hadenglock
[quote=adder;1531365]Hadenglock
You wrote:
“Im sure your animals are perfectly fine after you do the surgeries”
Yes
“but your stimulating the idea that its okay for pretty much anyone to do these surgeries”
No – I never said that. In fact I wrote (and you quoted):
“it would be generally advised that a qualified veterinary surgeon perform the operation”
Thus there is no need for you to put spin or interpretation on an explicit statement!
All the best


"this is not necessarily essential or for that matter the most important requirement." This is the statement im more focusing on that you emphasized on your webpage. I dont even know how else i can explain why that statement totally contradicts what you just said, its just too obvious. HOW is having someone else other than a veternarian not the most important requirement to perform a surgery on your pets???? not to mention you failed to answer my other questions in my previous post...........
 
Old 10-24-2012, 09:44 AM   #167
Lucille
Interesting entry in Wikipedia:


Hoser is an advocate of venomoid snakes, surgically altered to remove venom, and has published discussion on this topic,[15] and promoted the procedure on his website.[24] These animals are kept as pets, or used in exhibitions to the general public, and the procedure is regarded as controversial.[25] A 2008 government tribunal ruled that Hoser's venomoid snakes cannot be handled by members of the public, due to the risk of the venom glands regrowing. VCAT Deputy President Anne Coghlan found Hoser had no qualifications, no training and produced no scientific evidence to back up his claims.[26]

In 2011 Hoser was convicted and fined $12,000 in the County Court for demonstrating with venomous snakes less than three metres from the public, working in accessible pits and demonstrating in a way that put the animals at risk of theft. Hoser allowed his 10-year-old daughter to be bitten by a taipan and a death adder to demonstrate that his "venomoid" snakes were harmless.[30] The manager of the shopping center where Hoser performed claimed that Hoser's performance was not consistent with his act description and said that Hoser would not be allowed back.[31] Following this incident, the Victorian Department of Sustainability and Environment (DSE) suspended Hoser's commercial wildlife demonstrator license and his authorisation to hold snake-handling courses and use wildlife in film and television.[32] Hoser said that he would apply to the courts for an emergency injunction against this suspension.[32]
 
Old 10-24-2012, 09:50 AM   #168
IMAJACOBIAN
Very interesting.

Good find lucille.
 
Old 10-24-2012, 10:00 AM   #169
Mimmieux
Indeed an interesting find, let's see what Mr. Hoser has to say about this!
 
Old 10-24-2012, 10:06 AM   #170
IMAJACOBIAN
I hope he didn't really allow his child to get bitten. I wil not even allow my daughter around anything larger let alone a hot. Even with a documented venomoid, I would never, ever let my daughter near it. Very sad, assuming it's true.

Thanks,

Jacob
 

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