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Old 03-26-2004, 01:08 PM   #91
psilocybe
Ray,

I stated from the getgo that I do not have anything against you or your business, and that I know that you self innoculate etc. The "stupid" comment was an error, i only realized it when i had already posted, and you can't edit on this forum (to my knowledge.) Disclaimers don't do anything. Look at cigarettes, alcohol, and everything else. Telling someone not to do something doesnt neccesarily mean that by looking at one of your photos, they won't do it. The fact you only need to be 18 to buy a hot means that many foolish people don't need parental supervision to get a black mamba and try and command it with the same skill and experience you do. Plus, no 18 year old innoculates himself (or has been) for long enough to take any venomous bite well. I'm simply stating that people look at that and think 1 of two things:

1. "Man, that guy is doing something incredibly dangerous, I would never do something like that, wow!"

or

2. "Wow, look at that, I bet i could do that, what's that called, a black mamba, hey look , heres one on the classifieds, only $400 and i can be the coolest guy on the block!"

And price doesn't matter, because anyone can get a monocle cobra for $100 if the $400 for the mamba is too much...either way, if they are in the #2 scenario, they are probably dead. Like i said, I have NOTHING against you personally, I simply disagree with your handling procedures, self innoculation or not. I realize my inital post might have sounded harsh, and i was in a fairly rotten mood yesterday anyway. You have my apologies. In my eyes, self innoculation is a safety net, that if you milk hots or have any regular close contact to the business end of hots, you are much more likely to take a hit than if you are just a private keeper and use trapboxes and other tools to minimize physical contact. If i self innoculated, i would still use the safest methods of handling that I could. The immunity would merely be an extra saftey net for my health and well being. Like i said, I'm sorry for the apparent nastiness of my initial posting. Reading it again, I can see it was a little on the harsh side. Take care and be safe!!

Abhishek Prasad
 
Old 03-26-2004, 01:14 PM   #92
psilocybe
Ahh, i take it back, you can edit on this forum, just not the BOI.

AP
 
Old 03-26-2004, 01:16 PM   #93
Vince
save the bad guy comments for the guy who was selling hots to teenagers with borrowed credit cards.
 
Old 03-26-2004, 03:56 PM   #94
psilocybe
Quote:
Originally posted by Vince
save the bad guy comments for the guy who was selling hots to teenagers with borrowed credit cards.
If this is directed at me, I never called anyone a "bad guy" on here...
 
Old 03-26-2004, 08:53 PM   #95
COBRAMAN
Quote:
Disclaimers don't do anything. Look at cigarettes, alcohol, and everything else. Telling someone not to do something doesnt neccesarily mean that by looking at one of your photos, they won't do it.
No need to be sorry, I never took offence to anything you wrote. I seem to be immune to those type posts as well as a few venoms. I respect your opinions, and welcome your comments, BUT I wish you would have taken it up with me instead of making the issue by unathorized use of one of my own pictures on the internet. No biggie.

I realize that my disclaimer may not stop some unsupervised kid from doing something stupid, but if they are that stupid to copy everything they see on tv or the internet, they will simply have to learn the hard way like I did. Every action of a kid (as well as adults) has it's own consequences. If a kid is going to smoke, he is going to smoke. If he is going to pick up venomous snakes, he is going to do it with or without my pictures. Again, I don't see you posting against Bill Haast (who has been doing this far longer than I, and gets far more publicity than I do). I can not take on the responsibility of raising every child that has access to the internet or tv. That is the parents job. Only one out of every 100 comments I get about the photos on my web site are of a negative nature. Should I not share with the other 99 because one person does not like what they see. When I see a violent tv program, I simply change the channel. I don't call the broadcasters and tell them that they are creating killers out of the unsupervised kids that are watching the program. There must be many other things on the internet that can pose a problem for these kids than the photos on my site, but IF the kid is stupid enough to try to copy me, and IF the parents are willing to buy them the venomous snake, and IF the seller is willing to risk his business by selling the kid the snake, than that stupid kid is going to learn the hard way that it is wise to heed the disclaimers on some of these sites. However, all that is simply speculation as I still have not heard of a kid getting hurt because he copied a photo off a site such as mine. If it starts to become an issue, I will then consider removing the pictures.

I also should note that it appears that you yourself have a false assumption about my handling techniques based on the photos you have seen of me. I DO NOT handle venomous snakes all the time the way it may appear in the photos on my site. I do use propper safety equipment, and I have gone through a great deal of time and money to stock appropriate antivenoms. I may allow people to take odd photos of me, but that is not my norm when it comes to venomous snake handling. You would have learned this had you contacted me prior to posting what you posted. I respect your opinions, and expect you to respect my opinions. No hard feelings.

Be Blessed!
Ray Hunter
 
Old 03-30-2004, 09:41 AM   #96
SERPENTS DEN
Warning! Plaintiffs Story

LANCASTER SUNDAY NEWS (Pennsylvania) 27 March 04 Snakebit (Maria Coole Mcoole)
Bitten by his West African bush viper, a Pequea boy’s life is saved by doctors and zookeepers. He may lose a finger.
One of Vinny Drago’s dreams is to meet Steve Irwin of TV’s “The Crocodile Hunter.’’ Irwin has spent his whole life living amongst and working with reptiles and other native Australian wildlife at the Australia Zoo, which was founded by his parents.
Vinny’s experience with reptiles pales in comparison, but the 17-year-old Pequea boy has had one experience that Irwin hasn’t. He has been bitten by a venomous snake.
And he didn’t choose a good one.
Yes, it was beautiful: bright green with yellow spots and turquoise eyes.
But the most important thing to consider if you are going to keep a venomous snake is “Can you get antivenin?” (Antivenin is also known informally as antivenom).
And for the West African bush viper, the first venomous snake Vinny owned, the answer is no.
Vinny could have died, and might lose a finger, because he didn’t know that.
Vinny Drago owned his first pet snake at age 4. Reptiles and amphibians have been his passion. He grew up in Florida and caught many in their natural habitat. When he was in kindergarten, he even carried a coral snake off a playground because the teacher and students were frightened.
He has had many nonvenomous pet snakes, including pythons and boa constrictors and has done much research on snakes. But the West African bush viper (Atheris chlorechis) and its venom have not been studied much, and there have been conflicting reports about how dangerous a bite could be.
Vinny said the man he bought the snake from told him it wouldn’t hurt him. “The guy had told me, if I had gotten bitten, nothing would happen. I would not even get sick. I would just have a little bit of pain, like a bee sting,’’ Vinny said.
Vinny’s mother Lisa called the man the next day. “He said ... it would not hurt my son,’’ she said.
The Dragos did not want the name of the person who sold the snake to Vinny published.
“You know that gut feeling you get when you are a parent. I just had that gut feeling. … I was too naïve,” said Lisa.
“If I’d known there was no antivenom, I would never allowed Vinnie to have it.”
There are not many people who are competent to work with West African bush vipers, said Brint Spencer, curator of reptiles and amphibians at the Philadelphia Zoo.
“In general, venomous snakes should never be considered a pet. They are ... something to observe,’’ he said.
And anyone keeping a venomous snake should keep antivenom, he said.
Spencer said he is unaware of any fatalities from a bush viper bite in the United States. “Typically, it’s very painful, usually not fatal,’’ he said.
After living with Vinny for seven months, the West African bush viper, about 19 inches long and 3 to 4 years old, has been a vagabond.
It spent a few weeks with Chet Sourbeer of Millersville after he heard through a friend that Lisa wanted it out of her house. But after Sourbeer took the snake to Millersville, word filtered to the police department, which informed Sourbeer of the borough zoning ordinance that prohibits keeping venomous snakes.
The snake then spent a day at the Millersville Borough police station until police Chief John Rochat contacted the Philadelphia Zoo, and Spencer came to pick it up.
The snake will soon move from the Philadelphia Zoo to a venom lab in Kentucky, where it will stay until it finds a permanent home at a zoo in Ohio.
Sourbeer, who has kept many reptiles and amphibians, said the man who sold the snake to Vinny “had no business selling the snake to a kid that young.”
There is no Pennsylvania law forbidding the sale of exotic venomous snakes, said Gary Davis, president and founder of the Northeast Pennsylvania Herpetological Society.
The only laws concern native species, he said. The state leaves it up to each municipality, he said.
Chad Peeling, operations manager for Reptiland on U.S. Route 15 in Allenwood, said a lot of towns have laws against keeping venomous snakes.
“The real problem is when people do foolish things. It’s hard to legislate against that,” he said. “In terms of legalities, there are no broad statewide or nationwide laws preventing people from keeping venomous snakes,” he said.
The West African bush viper is not a threat to community, he said, but “it can put you in hospital and make your life pretty unpleasant for a while.”
Vinny’s life became “pretty unpleasant” on Feb. 9. Before he went to bed in the early morning, he checked the bush viper’s cage. The snake looked like it might be dead. He reached in and moved a log in the cage.
The snake struck, sinking its two fangs into his left index finger.
The pain began immediately. Within minutes his hand and arm were swollen, and his finger, where the snake struck, was turning black and blue. By the time the ambulance arrived, the tissue in his finger and hand was already dying.
Vinny ran into his mother’s room, waking her up, yelling in pain.
“I thought for sure I was going to lose him,” said Lisa.
Rescue personnel quickly contacted Harrisburg Hospital, which told them to have the nearest medical helicopter airlift Vinny to Harrisburg. Then Harrisburg began researching what to do about the bite.
Dr. Kevin Washington got on the phone with Lisa, and she gave him all the information she could.
While the Conestoga Ambulance crew was putting a tourniquet on Vinny’s arm to prevent the progression of the venom, the helicopter was landing across from their home deep in the country.
Washington was spending just a month at Harrisburg Hospital as part of his residency training. This was his first snake bite. Dr. Ward Donovan, head of the toxicology department, has dealt with snake bites but never one with no available antivenom, Washington said.
The next step was checking with poison centers throughout the country to find the best antivenom, Washington said.
He also searched the Internet for information. He and Donovan settled on a polyvalent (a mix of antivenoms that included antigens that work on snakes similar to the West African bush viper) from South Africa. But the choice was a gamble.
After finding out through a poison control center in Tuscon, Ariz., which zoos in the country might have the South African antivenom, Washington called the Philadelphia Zoo and the Baltimore Zoo. Both zoos, which Washington praised for their help, provided antivenom.
Vinny arrived at Harrisburg Hospital at between 1:30 and 2 a.m., Washington said. Spencer of the Philadelphia Zoo got a phone call at home at around 2:30 a.m. He drove to the zoo to pick up five vials of antivenom and then drove to the Philadelphia airport. A helicopter from Harrisburg was at the airport to fly the antivenom back to the hospital. At the same time, employees from the Baltimore Zoo were driving 10 vials of antivenom to Harrisburg.
Meanwhile, the hospital staff was giving Vinny rattlesnake antivenom at around 3 a.m., hoping it might help while they waited for the antivenom from Philadelphia.
It didn’t help. The swelling continued, and Vinny’s entire arm was so painful that even grazing it lightly was excruciating, Washington said.
At around 4:30 a.m., Vinny got the first South African polyvalent antivenom when the Philadelphia Zoo vials arrived. The antivenom from the Baltimore Zoo came later. Vinny was given more antivenom at around 10 or 11 a.m., Washington said.
The progression of the damage from the venom stopped after the hospital administered the South African antivenom, Washington said, although his body might have been starting to recover on its own at the same time he received the South African antivenom.
Washington said he doesn’t really know if Vinny came close to dying from the snake bite, although the teen showed signs that the venom had gotten into his central circulation system and he had blood abnormalities.
Without the antivenom, “potentially [Vinny] could have lost his arm or could have died. There is no way to know for sure.”
If there could be any luck involved in a snake bite, Vinny was in one of the best places he could have been. Harrisburg Hospital is the only hospital in the country that has a toxicology unit with hospital beds dedicated just for poison patients.
Vinny spent nine days in the hospital. He is home now, but cannot go to school. A Penn Manor High School student, he is being schooled at home two days a week.
His prognosis is very good, Washington said, but he still might lose his left index finger because there was a lot of tissue damage, and he could need skin grafts. When antivenom is administered it does not stop the local tissue damage; it just stops the progression of the venom through the body, he said. He estimated it would take several months for Vinny’s finger to heal.
Washington has written an article on Vinny’s case for a medical journal, but it isn’t published yet.
Because there is not a great demand for an antivenom for the West African bush viper, no one has invested the time and money to produce it. In its native habitat in northwest and middle Africa the snake has rare contact with humans.
The antivenom the Philadelphia Zoo stores is imported from South Africa. To import the antivenom, Spencer needs a special combined permit that is issued by the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the Health & Human Services Department.
Some zoos, including the Philadelphia Zoo, won’t keep bush vipers on display because there is no antivenom, said Spencer.
Chad Peeling of Reptiland said Harrisburg Hospital also called them looking for antivenom, but they didn’t have what was needed.
“It is dangerous,” Peeling said of the West African bush viper. “It is not high on the list of the most dangerous snakes,” he said.
“They are relatively small snakes. That is a factor. The quantity of the venom is smaller with smaller snakes.”
The venom is poorly studied and so few bites occur, he said, there is not much experience in treating them.
The American Association of Poison control Centers has no data on West African bush viper bites, and the bites are not required to be reported anywhere, a spokeswoman for the group said.
A snake can control the amount of venom it releases, said Spencer of the Philadelphia Zoo. How a bite affects a person depends on sensitivity, where the bite is and how much venom was injected, said Spencer.
If the snake hits a vein or artery, the venom will travel more quickly through the blood. If the snake thinks it is being threatened, it will inject a smaller amount of venom than if it is striking to kill its food, Spencer said.
“In a feeding response, the snake wants to kill whatever it is as quickly as possible, so it doesn’t have to track it.”
“In a captive situation,” he said, “when a snake strikes, it is usually a feeding response because it is used to the door opening and food coming in.”
Spencer said the real cost of keeping snakes isn’t the purchase price; it’s the cost of the antivenom.
But that cost has to include importation paperwork and brokerage fees. The cost of the antivenom from the Philadelphia Zoo, not including Spencer’s time and the helicopter, probably was around $500.
In researching his upcoming book, Michael Jacobi, the author of The World of Atheris Web site (www.worldofatheris.net) found only a handful of bite accounts, he told the Sunday News in an e-mail.
He writes on his Web site that African bush viper venom is “poorly studied and generally misunderstood. ... [There is] an erroneous belief that these snakes are ‘mildly venomous’ or not life threatening. This is simply not true.”
Grateful mom
Lisa, who is unemployed, is worried about the bills. Insurance will not pay for the helicopter trips, the ambulance, Vinny’s medicine and the antivenom. And when Vinny turns 18 in April, he will no longer be covered by insurance.
She is grateful, though, for all the help they have gotten and how much people have cared.
She praised the hospital and staff, also.
“The toxicology team was great. … I can’t thank them enough.”
But Washington garnered most of her praise.
“I just owe him everything. … He’s just a really wonderful doctor,” Lisa said.
 
Old 03-30-2004, 09:57 AM   #97
ms_terese
Wow.

Sad situation for sure.

I have a difficult time accepting that the mother believes the seller of the animal had more responsibility in determining whether or not the animal was safe for her son than she did.
 
Old 03-30-2004, 10:06 AM   #98
SERPENTS DEN
Mother

In there statement it just proves that the mother had prior knowledge the snake was venomous!
I would also never compare any venomous snake bite to a Bee Sting that is just ridiculous.
 
Old 03-30-2004, 11:41 AM   #99
psilocybe
I was just about to post that story myself...

because I was pretty sure it was the same kid. Looks like his and his mother's stories are the opposite of yours! That really sucks man, because we all know what greedy people will do for money, and lying is surely not below these people I'm sure. Looks like this story finally got a bit of un-wanted media attention. *sigh*

AP
 
Old 03-30-2004, 11:44 AM   #100
psilocybe
Quote:
I respect your opinions, and expect you to respect my opinions. No hard feelings.
Be Blessed!
Ray Hunter
Yes, I do respect your opinions, Ray. No hard feeling here either. Take care,

Abhishek
 

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