Hybrid Snakes Forum???

A snake that sells for a grand, that you're selling for a hundred fifty with another hundred fifty for paperwork and shipping.....if someone is so intimidated by paperwork with those prices they shouldn't have the snake anyway.

It's a lame excuse.

Plus most states and i believe the feds tend to consider hybrids as being both parent species rather than neither- meaning that the resulting offspring are covered by whatever laws are the more restrictive. Hybrid indigos would certainly be something far less than an indigo while having all the same legal issues ad their own, brand spanking new set of ethical ones.

Originally Posted by SgtFoster

Yes I see the difference between pure and hybrids, but I think I/we can produce a snake that most people can afford and then enjoy.

The rest of the discussion aside, there are plenty of snakes available that people can afford and enjoy, so that line of thought doesn't wash. Colubrids, boas, pythons, venomous...ranging from about $10 right on up to whatever tag you would put on these hybrids. I am not going to get into the hybridization debate, because, quite frankly, you will do what you will do. The fact that you have gotten many strong responses so far, yet continue to ask (and seem somewhat serious about pursuing)_ seems to indicate that aren't overly concerned by the recommendations of others. If you opt to proceed, just don't try to pretend it is for a nobler reason. Simply admit that it is because you want to.

Originally Posted by hhmoore

The rest of the discussion aside, there are plenty of snakes available that people can afford and enjoy, so that line of thought doesn't wash. Colubrids, boas, pythons, venomous...ranging from about $10 right on up to whatever tag you would put on these hybrids. I am not going to get into the hybridization debate, because, quite frankly, you will do what you will do. The fact that you have gotten many strong responses so far, yet continue to ask (and seem somewhat serious about pursuing)_ seems to indicate that aren't overly concerned by the recommendations of others. If you opt to proceed, just don't try to pretend it is for a nobler reason. Simply admit that it is because you want to.

Damn Straight Skippy.

Oh and the original... petition (?) to have a hybrid forum...

What's wrong with "Genetics, Taxonomy, Hybridization" as it already exists on the site? It's not like there are so many threads that those intimately related subjects need to be split up.

Aside from the useless pollution of what is a small and valuable (not just monetarily) gene pool, what Seamus said is the simple fact. Hybridizing these snakes will not get you out of the necessary paperwork.
Most of the laws on the books concerning protected species actually specify that species and and hybrids thereof require permits.

Even in the states where this is not specified, it will not matter. If you create the hybrids, and get them back to the point that they look just like a pure indigo, they will be treated as such by any F&G department.
If an officer with the F&G sees a snake that looks identical to an indigo, you can claim they're hybrids all you want and it will make no difference because by looking at the snake that cannot be proven. The snake will be taken and the owner fined.

The end result of this project is obvious. Once the offspring are back to 75% or more indigo, and show no visible traces of the pollution by the pine snakes, a certain percentage of the offspring will be purchased by people who view them solely as a cheap way to produce what can be passed off as pure indigos, and they will do so.
The simple fact of the matter is permits are required. Regardless of the purchase price, if a potential owner doesn't want to get the necessary paperwork to own the species then they must do without them.
As Wes said, you can easily produce pure indigos and sell them for whatever you want, and the price can be low enough to negate the cost of the permit several times over.

Harald put it best, you will do what you want to do regardless of what anyone suggests. If you want to hybridize indigos, then you will, but don't do so under the guise that it's for a noble cause. Claiming it is to avoid permits, which it will not do, is rubbish.

As has been suggested, hybridizing is not essentially evil, but when you consider doing it to a species that is already rare in many respects, your end result will only bring harm to the species and this hobby. Not to mention you will alienate yourself from other breeders.

The other problem which now exists with opening this can of worms is that people will remember this thread vividly. From here on out, if you intend to breed indigos, I suggest documenting your efforts diligently. If you start selling indigos in the future, the purity will now be under scrutiny, and rightfully so.

Bart

Originally Posted by bsharrah

As has been suggested, hybridizing is not essentially evil, but when you consider doing it to a species that is already rare in many respects, your end result will only bring harm to the species and this hobby. Not to mention you will alienate yourself from other breeders.

The other problem which now exists with opening this can of worms is that people will remember this thread vividly. From here on out, if you intend to breed indigos, I suggest documenting your efforts diligently. If you start selling indigos in the future, the purity will now be under scrutiny, and rightfully so.

Bart

Amen

If you want a hybrid forum, here's one that covers quite a bit.

http://www.spitfirereptiles.com/hybridhaven

It has slow traffic as it is not something I promote much but I merely have hopes for it to become a safe place to discuss them as well as creating a large database over time of what has and has not been created.
BTW, hybrid haters need no signing up. It'll just be a waste of time. You'll get booted per our TOS
Take a look!

-Yasser

My family lives on a very modest income to say the least. My wife and I recently saved up the money and purchased a Eastern Indigo. I was very scared because it was a lot of money to us. It was one of the best decisions I have ever made. This snake is teetering on extinction and your talking of screwing up its gene pool. Part of the responsibility of owning an Indigo is making the financial commitment. If this snake wasn't in trouble it would be a lot cheaper. I tell you what SgtFoster do the right thing and buy a pure blood indigo, you cannot truly love snakes and do what you are proposing. You may find exactly what the indigo owners are trying to protect.

Want a cheap indigo? Why not look into Black tail cribos? Same snake really, a bit different coloration has the same awesome personality though. Anyone that is thinking about taking the steps to owning an indigo can definitely do their homework and research cribos as well. Black tails are supposed to be awesome pets. I also happen to think they are gorgeous and if it wasn't for the fact that I live in the eastern US and would like to get a pair of these to the Columbus zoo I would have bought a cribo from a reputable breeder instead.

Ok ok you still want an eastern indigo for a pet, there are also plenty of snakes that are not perfect that breeders sell for a lot cheaper. Great snakes maybe small or not able to breed but make excellent pets and need loving homes and they are still eastern indigos.

The idea is crap if you want to help indigos don't risk the chance of a hybrid snake screwing up the gene pool, and guess what, the indigo breeders will just charge more for secure bloodlines and true indigo lovers will pay for them every time. This snake is awesome in its pure form, if you buy one you will marvel at it. My family geeked out after ours shed the first time. You will do nothing for it but make it less than it already is... perfect. If you want to do the world justice or whatever it is you think you are going to do, do as a lot of people have proposed and get two indigos and sell the offspring for cheap.