I've got to ask.....

Originally Posted by Griz

It is a natural fascination that I have as to what makes people take certain risks. Is the enjoyment they receive worth the risk and if so, why? I am truly fascinated by it.

I accept, wholeheartedly, that you and whomever else enjoy these animals. What I was puzzled about is how that enjoyment supercedes the risks involved. I think anyone would find that very fascinating to say the least.

Griz

So do you quiz recreational skydivers as to why they choose jumping out of a perfectly good airplane as an enjoyable hobby?
I would assume the same curiosity would lead you to do so. The most common answer in that case is the thrill of the free fall. To a person who doesn't find that thrilling though, the answer does nothing to make them understand. It only causes them to be more baffled by the pursuit. Now it's not only why do you jump out of planes, but also why do you find hurtling toward the ground to be thrilling.

While I do not keep hots for the thrill, any reason given only leads to more questions. The reasons you gave may work to an extent to explain why one keeps reptiles, but they are inadequate when explaining why one keeps hots. Every reason you gave, if used in the context of keeping venomous is easily countered by saying, "but there are nonvenomous (i.e. harmless) snakes that fulfill that", and that is exactly what happens and what would most likely have happened in this thread.
To merely say you keep them because they're beautiful, or they're fascinating to watch may explain why you like snakes, but not why you choose to go to the next level and keep snakes that can kill you.
The long and short of it is there is no reason or justification at all that will cause someone who doesn't want to keep hots to understand why we do.

I don't care anything about educating people about hots, nor do I care about creating an interest in hots in other reptile keepers. In my opinion it's not an area of the hobby that should be pursued by the vast majority of keepers.
I do not encourage people to keep anything venomous and I do not offer advice on how to do it. I have however discouraged many against keeping venomous. That's just me and the choice I make. That choice however further causes me to not be inclined to explain myself, particularly with the realization that anything said will only serve to draw more questions while never satisfying any curiosity the asker might actually have.
The discussion is a bottomless pit from which there is no escape other than to go around it to begin with.

Ironically we've expended as much if not more energy explaining why we can't explain than we would have if we'd just embarked on the pointless attempt at trying in the first place.

I started at an early age of 15. I had been keeping herps since 6 years of age.
I was interested in all aspects of Herpetology and had kept most species available in the pet trade. I was bored with what was available and wanted to expand my knowledge and husbandry skills. Keeping hots was a new frontier for me.
The only native hot in our area was the Eastern Massasauga and that was a rare and protected snake 40 years ago.

I researched venom toxicity's and thought a Pygmy Rattlesnake would be a good first hot. As we were packing the family stationwagon for a spring vacation to Florida, my Mom asked "why are you bring that 5 gallon aquarium"? I told her that I planned to bring back some Pygmy rattlesnakes from Florida. The tank was actually a metal topped locking lid which was safe for hots. I don't think she believed I would find any. I brought home 6 at age 15.

Shortly after that I met Dave Farber who became my hot mentor.
He took me to Southern Illinois to experience capturing venomous snakes in the field. Moccasins, Canebrakes, and Copperheads were found on a regular basis.

I found myself captivated with venomous snakes and the husbandry challenges. At 17, I purchased a large venomous collection consisting of Gaboons, Puff Adders, Sidewinder, Red Diamondback, Eastern Diamondback,
Southern & Northern Pacifics, Forest Cobra, Monocellate Cobra, Egyptian Cobra, and more.

As a lot of us have hopefully discovered, some animals are of more interest than others. Or we find that we have a knack for breeding and keeping certain species. This is the case with me.

Fortunately I have been able to make a living with the venomous snakes in Educational and Training Programs along side the non-venomous snakes.
Living in Texas and outside city limits make this possible. Not to mention having a good relationship with area Animal Control Agencies and Law Enforcement. I receive quite a few referrals from 911 and have gone out to assist Sheriff and Police Departments with snake calls. I also have a 4 hour Reptile Workshop certified by the state for training Animal Control Officers and Law Enforcement in identification, capture, handling, and husbandry techniques.

To enjoy the right to keeping hots we need to be responsible and govern our own.

Bob,
I hope I didn't stray too far off topic for you. Does this answer your question?

Tim, that was outstanding. I appreciate you taking the time to thoroughly understand my line of questions. Unfortunately, Harald has dealt with individuals who were less than understanding when it came to why he kept hots and therefore assumed that my questioning would follow that same line.

Clay - In Rantoul, Illinois, about 30 minutes from me, we have one of the nations largest freefall convention each year. It amazes me the courage that some of these guys have. And yes, I have spoken to some of those individuals about why they jump. To be blunt, I plan on taking the plunge at some point as well. Whether the reasoning has been for the thrill, for the beauty, for the ability to conquer one's fear, I have always either understood or at least accepted the rationale. No difference with hots, at least not for me.

Originally Posted by hhmoore

If you read that post, my comment about lessening respect clearly (IMO, anyway) refers to the result of one not accepting the responses at face value & trying to delve deeper and deeper...continuing the questioning because they "just don't get it". It had nothing to do with you, or my level of respect for you, at that point. I wasn't looking for a fight, just trying to draw a parallel to a type of conversation I figured you had experienced...apparently, though, you haven't tried to have that type of conversation with someone that was just too closed minded to accept your answers. I wish I could say the same. There was no speaking out both sides of my mouth; and, frankly, my conscience is as clear about what I said in that post as yours is about your intentions in this thread.

Then Harald, why not wait to see if I would go down the path of continual questioning vs assuming that I would be like the others you have encountered? I did not ask you to convince me of why you keep hots. I simply asked why do you do it? No amount of convincing will get me keeping them but then again, I was not looking to be convinced, was I?

I have had many conversations with people about my love of reptiles. Closed minded or not, they do understand or at least accept why I love these animals. Maybe it's in how you approach your rationale and in the delivery of such that makes the difference in how one is accepted? Maybe it's your approach that needs changing vs the minds of those who seek the information.

Originally Posted by hhmoore

(and yes, I saw the /desire the first time). There was no perception required, it was right there in black & white. Not really any insinuation either, the words rang pretty clearly.

Harald, I gave you 2 options in which to fall under. Why you want to assume that inability means lack of intellect is your issue not mine. I did not insinuate that one's inability = stupidity, you did.

Originally Posted by hhmoore

Nothing said in explanation will really make sense to the inquiring parties." My aim was not to offend YOU with the statement in quotes, it was simply a statement of fact.

Tim did, as have several pm's I have received. Your statement of fact just became opinion as it was successfully done by others.

Originally Posted by hhmoore

For the record, I thought long and hard before taking a defensive stance (my second post) - well, actually, I only thought long and hard before posting it - almost didn't do it, in fact, because I censor myself pretty well, as a rule. I chose to do so, knowing and accepting that some might think less of me because of it.

With all due respect Harald, there is your statement of fact. The way in which you handled this topic accomplished exactly that in which you did not intend. Clay handled this with some tact and Tim saw my questioning to be exactly what I meant it to be. That's all I was ever looking for and my post was certainly not intended to bring about negative opinions. What a shame that it was taken there......

Griz

All I can tell you is that for me, it is not the cool factor or a rush thing... After you have kept hots for a while it is just like keeping any other snake species...
The risk factor drops considerably when you are properly trained and experienced... So the joy and reward of keeping these animals far out weighs the "risk factor" you mention...

I keep them because I enjoy doing so... It is what I like and it is what I do...

exactly

Hello to all. I am NOT trying to say ANYTHING that might offend anyone here, so if be some chance it seems that I am...PLEASE forgive me for not saying this right!
I TOTALLY ADMIRE ALL ANIMAL HANDLERS!!!! It doesn't matter if it furry or scaly they all have that potential to remind us from time to time that we aren't as smart or quick as we think we are! BUT... to those of you that handle the HOTS to educate...THANKS!!!! To all of you that handle non-ven's for education....THANKS!!!
I am trying to not sound biase because I have non ven's... but I have several friends who have ven's & although I have chunked a mouse into a cage when the held the door open or something along those lines I have NEVER held a hot (except a cobra...but she was no longer hot). As I stand by & watch a gabbon viper being treated for mouth rot or the spitting cobra being transfered from one cage to the other I learn so much that I NEVER would have known if you guys & my friends didn't have this love. Most importantly... my children LOVE all animals!! They watch animal planet like other kids play video games or watch cartoons. While it's not a bad thing, they have come to me & said "Look what steve,jeff,etc...etc..just did & then had the impression tht they could go find a snake & try it!!! I thank god that mt friends have the patientce to sit them down..tell them the good & BAD of handling snakes!!!
My point...nothing except thanks!