Deal With Andre Of ASF Reptiles Gone Bad

I would like to call on the members of the BOI for there honest professional opinion of a transaction I have recently been involved in. I would first like to say that the events I am about to list are as accurate as my memory serves me. I spoke to a gentleman about two adult pastel males I had for sale. I'll leave his identity anonymous for now, as he is a well advertised ball python "breeder". I will also sent him a link to this thread to make him aware of it.

I was selling one of the adult male pastels for 1650.00 and one for 1750.00. These were both adults from 04 weighing 800 plus grams. When we had our first conversation it was on 11-20-05. I told the gentleman a little bit about their feeding habits, such as one of them was still feeding but the other has refused food for the last two weeks. And also, that I introduced both males with females,and they each copulated with a female once while in my possession. I spoke again with the gentleman on 11-24-05 and we agreed on a price of 2500.00 for both males, and I would split the cost of shipping - 70.00 via Delta Dash. I received payment on 11-27-05 for a total of 2535.00 via paypal. An email was sent to the gentleman to confirm that the payment was received, and that I would be calling him later in the week to discuss shipping arrangements. I spoke with him a few days later and we agreed that I would send the two male pastels via Delta Dash on 12-05-05. The animals were shipped, and he received them. When I spoke to him, after he received the animals, he said they felt a little cold to the touch ( even though I shipped them with two heat packs). But, he also stated that he "felt that they would be just fine." I received a call two days later on 12-07-05 from him, and he asked if either snakes ever had any RI's. I told him they never had any health problems at all. He said his partner thought that maybe one had a mild RI, but wasn't sure. I informed him to keep him warm, and to keep me updated. I never heard anything from him again regarding any possible URI, so I assumed the animals were doing fine for him. I then got a phone call on 1-12-06 from this gentleman stating that the one pastel has eaten several times and is currently breeding but the other one had not fed. He also stated that he attempted to breed the male (that did not eat for him and his partner suspected of having a mild URI) for 24 hours with a female, and he did not hook up - so he introduced him to another female overnight and he did not see him hook with that female either. So this particular phone call was to inform me that because of these circumstances at that present time, he was only half way happy with the transaction because he bought these young adult males to breed this year, and only one of them was breeding after 48 hours of introducing them with females. Please keep in mind, this is a self- proclaimed, relatively well known ball python breeder. I would have expected more from someone of this breeder's caliber. I would think that if the health of one of them was even questionable, he would have pulled them from his project, and consulted me about what appropriate actions we would take together to correct the condition of the snake and monetary aspect of the deal. Also, I'm under the impression from his actions that I'm supposed to be responsible for whether or not this male decides to breed when He wants it to?

Nothing else was ever mentioned about any health issues. I was under the impression that the male in question must obviously be fine - he's introducing it to females, right? He only mentioned that he was upset because the one male did not hook up on his first two attempts, and he did not want a male that was NOT going to breed for him right now. So I told him to be patient and give him a little more time with the females. I then received a phone call on 1-14-06 which was two days later, stating that the male pastel that did not hook up was found belly up in his container. He then asked me for a full refund. Now keep in mind, I haven't heard anything from this guy for 5 weeks now - concerning the health of this snake. I actually remember him stating that his "partner" told him, that he thought he had heard a slight wheeze from the snake. But the buyer insist that he informed me that his partner felt the snake had a mild URI. Which leads me to another question - who's really in control of caring for this guys snakes? Through our conversations, he's informed me that he's mostly the business end of it.

After informing me that the snake had died, I first asked him if there were ever any signs of any health problems. He told me there were no signs of any health problems that he could see, and this was very unexpected. I then proceeded to ask how these snakes were kept and he said they were housed individually in 28 quart Rubbermaid's on newspaper with a ambient room temperature of 80-81 degrees with no hot spot or heat tape at all. Now I know, if I had a snake that had early signs of a upper respiratory infection, the very first thing I would do is raise the temps and this very likely could take care of the problem. That's the least of what I would do, in the best interest of the animal, He on the other hand, only seemed concerned about this male's immediate reproductive/monetary potential.

We also discussed a little bit about what he thought was fair and what he expected. He feels I should give him a full refund for the snake that died even though it was five weeks after the sale. It is his opinion that even if he contacted me 5 months later I would still be responsible because this animal did not eat or breed in his hands yet. He then contradicted himself, and admitted that these animals had good body weight, and the fact that it did not eat for a couple of weeks had nothing to do with its demise. I on the other hand, just can't see how I could be responsible after such a long period of time after the sale. He also felt the need to tell me that he's not some small time breeder, and if he did not get a full refund that he would be forced to post here on the BOI to warn any of my future customers and it might cost me $5000.-10,000 in future sales. So, I thought I'd just cut to the chase, and ask for your opinions in this unfortunate situation. I really feel that I'm the one getting taken advantage of. If this animal really did have an upper respiratory infection, I would have been more than happy to correct the situation. But it obviously WAS healthy enough, in HIS judgement, to introduce to females for breeding purposes. So please let me know where YOU think my responsibility ends after the sale. One week? Three weeks? A month? And who is really getting the "dark" end of the stick here? Please feel free to ask any questions you might have and I will be more than happy to answer them to the best of my ability. And thanks again for everyone's help in this matter. Paul Wyble

As most of you know this thread was started yesterday but was moved because I did not state the name of the buyer. That is why I copied and pasted this again on the BOI with the buyers name. Pleaseif you already posted on this please copy and paste all your previous replys to this new thread. And thanks again for everyones help in this unfortunate matter. Paul Wyble

Why would someone attempt to breed a snake that was suspect of having an upper RI?
Paul, you really have to do what you feel is right on this one man. What would you want if the case was reversed? I don't know about a FULL refund, but maybe a partial. Also maybe I missed it, but was there ever PROOF of the snake dying, like pics or something for you to ID the snake as the one you sold?

Hello Greg how have you been? good I hope. Well first of all I really cant see that I could be responsible after 5 weeks? I mean really, this wasnt a few days or even a week later. His only complaint when he called me was that the one male did not breed on its first two attemps, nothing about health issues. And to answer your question no I never received any proof that the snake was dead. Paul Wyble

Is the buyer having a necropsy done? I don't believe a mild RI (if in fact the animal had one) would cause a snake to roll like that. Also, you are correct in your statement that if a snake did indeed have an RI, it should have had access to warmer temperatures. Also, like Greg, I would like to know if you have received a pic of the dead snake.

Like I said earlier I have received no proof yet of the snakes demise. Also I would like to put the link to the first thread I started yesterday. That way everyones opinions can be viewed. Thanks again Paul Wyble

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...38&page=1&pp=5

Well, at the very least the buyer needs to supply you with pictures that prove the snake in question is dead. Also, he would be wise to have a necropsy done on the animal. You know, in case it has some sort of disease that perhaps seems to be an RI, but really is much worse. I'm not saying that is the case Paul, I am just making the point that, with a high end collection like ASF is supposed to have, it would seem odd to me if they did not have a necropsy performed asap to find out what killed that snake. I would want to know if it had some sort of problem that killed it, I would be paranoid that the possible problem could have been passed around my collection to other snakes. Hmm something just doesn't make sense here...

I must weigh in on this one...

The animal was obviously never quarantined...the temps were not kept correctly...ESPECIALLY for an animal with a suspected mild RI...

If that animal were healthy enough to breed on the 12th...and was dead on the 14th...I cannot imagine that the mild RI killed it...
Or the lack of eating...

I have BP's that size that have decided to go MONTHS without eating...heck I have a 400g female that just ate for the first time since September this week...so the non-eating cannot be considered an issue unless this animal loss dramatic weight..which I cannot assume it did...or you would have been notified.
Heck the low temp may have been a factor in the reluctance to eat.

Only a necropsy can tell what killed this animal...but it sounds like a sudden death...which CAN happen...seeing as there were no other signs mentioned that would cause me to believe it had any other health problems, deadly or otherwise.

The fact that he was willing to subject his female to this snake two days prior also makes me feel that your assessment of the situation may be correct.

Hell we all hate to lose snakes...and I would hate to lose a snake I invested that much money into...but it does happen...

Unless a necropsy pointing to something that could only have been caused at your facility accompanied by a picture of the dead animal is forthcoming...I wouldn't refund a dime.

Unless a necropsy pointing to something that could only have been caused at your facility accompanied by a picture of the dead animal is forthcoming...I wouldn't refund a dime.

I agree with that 100%.

Hey Paul,
Thanks for deciding to post the identity here. I have a couple of posts in the other thread, and will leave them there. I agree with some of the other posts here that the cause of death is something that is important. Just not important to the issue at hand, which is your liability, or the threat of the BOI to compel a refund. There are two sides to every story, and I would like to hear if ASF intends to dispute the chronology as you have it listed. Barring some TOS, side agreement, or other such relative information, just notifying you of a possible concern two days after receipt does not extend any TOS to infinity, or five weeks, especially if the buyer did not take agreed upon and prudent steps to attempt to cure the problem. As the seller, you have an absolute legal right to be included in a possible remedy if you were to extend a guarantee. The buyer cannot arbitrarily decide what is prudent, extend the TOS, and then tell you how things are going to be, or what you owe beyond the initial agreement under which the deal was transacted, unless there is a statute which trumps all. That remedy is usually to send the animal back, or to put it under an agreed upon medical regimen which is supervised by a qualified individual, in most cases a vet, pending re-evaluation. Many of us are very curious to hear of the alleged threat to use the BOI as a means of extortion, whether it is acknowledged, denied, or put in a different light. If not already done, I would notify ASF that you started an inquiry here.