Adenovirus questions

Carriers are not disease producing in any species...humans are carriers of all kinds of things...and we would all test negative or positive until the colony counts got large enough to produce illness...do we know what the count has to be to produce a sure fire positive test in our reptiles ???? I am not denying that there needs to be more research, I am not denying that it could be dangerous...but what is the count of an organism that causes a respiratory infection in beardies that kill them, or how much fatty liver do you have to have before you are worried about fatty liver disease, or how much protein causes kidney failure, or how much D3 causes the neurotoxicity that many have identified in our beardies? It seems there are many questions, and some of these have struck home more than adenovirus. Cancer such as leukemia and lymphoma...I will not test my beardies until I have a reason to do so...I cannot change the spiralling death of the adults or their offspring if they have adenovirus, can I ?? Any responsible breeder who has unanswered reasons for deaths know to look for adenovirus. B

Originally Posted by Beardiepal

Carriers are not disease producing in any species

I'm not sure what exactly this is supposed to mean??? How are carriers "not disease producing"?

Perhaps they do not magically "produce" the illness, but asymptomatic or not, carriers of many things surely can spread that illness to others. Why else would we have human "carriers" of TB secluded away? Or boas that are asymptomatic spreading IBD to other animals?

Originally Posted by Beardiepal

I cannot change the spiralling death of the adults or their offspring if they have adenovirus, can I ??

It is mindset like this that prompted me to stop breeding Beardies altogether.

Originally Posted by Beardiepal

Any responsible breeder who has unanswered reasons for deaths know to look for adenovirus. B

By that time they would have sold tons of sick babies to unsuspecting people. People that have a right to know what the animal is carrying. What kind of person would do that if they know about adeno? People know it is out there so why not send one sample to see.

Had I known about adeno before I got my dragons, I would not even look at a breeders stock unless I seen a test. I am in no means putting any breeders that don't test down. I can understand the money issues. But I have experience with adenovirus. Yes, they can be healthy looking dragons but sometimes at a huge vet cost.

Hello,

Yes, I agree. Nothing will ever get accomplished with this type of mindset. How will anyone know any acceptable levels without doing any testing?
One problem I have with trying for a vaccine is this. For arguments' sake, let's say that all dragons have adeno in their system naturally, but if you don't test how can you know if they do or don't? What good would come from injecting a vaccine carrying the Adeno in it, into a perfectly healthy dragon? Reptiles do not process meds very well, & things can become toxic much more quickly than they would in mammals. Injecting a vaccine such as that could be devastating & possibly fatal to healthy animals with low or nonexistent levels of adeno virus. The blood brain barrier is much more fragile in reptiles than mammals, leaving them more vulnerable to drugs passing across the membranes more easily & staying in the system much longer.
A vaccine is not necessarily a cure all. Look at humans, we get the "vaccine" for the flu, but we still get it alot of times, even if we did get the vaccine. The same goes for alot of other things, too.
You can't just inject a vaccine into an animal that may not have it, just to prevent it. Stopping breeding known positives is the only way to eradicate it all, but without testing no one will know who is positive & who is negative.
I believe adeno is something that us humans have done to the dragons, not something naturally found in nature.
We are responsible for the downfall of any animal species.
Sandy of all people understands what it is like to deal with Adeno. She has spent thousands of dollars on her 2 dragons but to look at them today you would never know. However, the average person is simply not willing to go to such lengths to keep their dragons alive. Most don't understand that type of committment & passion.
Thank you Sandy, for your comments.


Tracie

Originally Posted by Drache613

Stopping breeding known positives is the only way to eradicate it all

How do you know this? It's a theory...but there is no way that you can be sure that no longer breeding AD+ dragons will result in the elimination of AD.

I believe adeno is something that us humans have done to the dragons, not something naturally found in nature.
We are responsible for the downfall of any animal species.

We as humans, did not do this to dragons. Viruses occur naturally in the environment. If we had released a genetically engineered lethal virus onto our dragons, then I could agree that it was our fault. But this is just a case of nature going through normal, natural processes. This has happened in many species, over many years. It weeds out the weak, and strengthens the strong. If you stop breeding all the strong healthy, AD+ drgagons that have aquired the ability to live healthy lives with this virus, then you are playing with nature. You will ultimately weaken the species. Sure...if you have a sickly dragons with AD, then do what you wish I suppose. Those dragons posses weak and inferior genetics, and they should not be bred and allowed to pass down their lack of resistance. But if you have strong, healthy AD+ dragons, then by all means, breed them! We need dragons like that![/quote]

I am not an expert on adenovirus in beardies. I have never been and will never say that I am. As far as I can tell there are no experts.This is a discussion and my mindset is not on trial here. I am trying to understand and be a part of this discussion. If my opinions are not worth respecting, then just come out and say so. I suppose you did this in a way and its not very supportive to those who you want to convince to test. If I am in your opinion with the mindset of an ass, so be it. I will not apologize for contributing to a discussion with the intention of attempting to learn & understand more. Thanks for the respect everyone. I truly think that your attitudes of criticism will turn more people away, or make them go elsewhere for answers. Respectfully, B

If you are here to learn, then you need to think before making statements such as "Carriers are not disease producing in any species"...passing on misinformation such as that is only detrimental to those who are trying so diligently to figure this thing out.

That, coupled with the comment about not being able to "change the spiralling death" of those already infected....perhaps we cannot change those, but by working together, we can possbily prevent more and yet more dragons from suffering their fate. By throwing up our hands and saying that we will go on like nothing is wrong since we really can't do anything about it anyway....that's what irks me.

I have no desire to be included with folks who think that way, nor could I continue to breed babies who may end up suffering that fate someday. I have chosen to simply enjoy my Beardies for the wonderful little beings they are. As much as I enjoyed having the babies I don't have to breed them to get that joy.

Originally Posted by Cat_72

If you are here to learn, then you need to think before making statements such as "Carriers are not disease producing in any species"...passing on misinformation such as that is only detrimental to those who are trying so diligently to figure this thing out.

That, coupled with the comment about not being able to "change the spiralling death" of those already infected....perhaps we cannot change those, but by working together, we can possbily prevent more and yet more dragons from suffering their fate. By throwing up our hands and saying that we will go on like nothing is wrong since we really can't do anything about it anyway....that's what irks me.

I have no desire to be included with folks who think that way, nor could I continue to breed babies who may end up suffering that fate someday. I have chosen to simply enjoy my Beardies for the wonderful little beings they are. As much as I enjoyed having the babies I don't have to breed them to get that joy.

I think Beth was trying to make the point that we (and animals) "carry" many viruses, bacteria, etc. These "germs" are not disease-producing in most cases, as we have developed an immunity to them over time. It is highly probable that the same is happening with adenovirus in dragons, based on the fact that many people have extremely healthy dragons that also happen to be AD+. If prositutes in African can begin showing resistance to HIV, then who is to say that dragons cannot develop resistance to adenovirus?

Jamie

No apologies, no nothing from your side. I want to say this...if you want people to test their beardies for adenovirus you must lose the greater than thou attitude. I agree with Valley and very much appreciate her discussion. You want to make beardies immune to adenovirus...it is utterly impossible. Perhaps you need to find the reason for this exacerbation of adenovirus and not blame it on irresponsible breeders or those of us will be reponsible if we have die off...did you ever ever expect adeno ubtil then? Its not that..there are so many other things that cause our dragon's death...more that are veteranarian accepted...I commend your efforts...but I have to say that if you take the God given ability to fight disease from them...then you will always have susceptible dragons..if you want my dragon as a research subject then say so...you have never once said what the risks & benefits would be...if my dragon is a carrier and tests positive and is never sick...does this information go out to your personal friends not to buy a dragon from someone who is healthy and only a carrier...shit you guys...you want to disrupt the dragon world without one iota of proof. Carriers do not mean disease. B

Instead of euthanizing your dragons that you thought would die from adenovirus, you actually killed progress !!! I have to say that your humanity probably delayed progress. And you want to blame others. B