Adeno Thoughts

Originally Posted by Drache613

Hello,

Well Anthony, such a fine example to bring to the board. First off, joining MY society, then lying & going behind my back about it after talking to other people saying that it is not a problem. I really am disappointed with how you have handled yourself. I have talked to several breeders, yes, larger breeders. I am not a phone person most of the time.
Go ahead & breed. I know all of you all are networking, etc, just to discredit me. I really don't care. If you want to continue to spread it, then there is nothing I can do.

Networking to discredit you? Is that really a fair statement? I mean, come on...it seems that YOU and a few others are trying to discredit all of us as breeders. You say we are uncaring, and only think about money. So can you really blame us if we decide to speak out against all the false adenovirus information being spread from forum to forum?

Yes, actually I have been in contact with several vets from Australia. Some have said there were a few cases, but nothing like here in the US.

Vets...such as...?

I will continue to try & educate & encourage those who want to test for the better of the species & health. Why do you not care about spreading disease, because of you pocketbook? That is a lame excuse.

There you go with that "pocketbook" argument again. Anyone who dishes out $1000's to test for a virus that is not even proven to cause disease, while he or she has a healthy colony of dragons, is an idiot. Pure and simple. What you are asking people to do defies logic. This is why you don't have more supporters.

Yes I actually do have documented tests from someone who has been testing negative for 2 years. They have been confirmed through Lou Ann so don't tell me what I do & do not have. I refuse to share my files because of the privacy. She has already been harrassed anyway so you have already gotten your way by shoving your biased views around.
Personally it is the other way around guys. You shove your views around to everyone else saying it is not a problem, when, it is.
I spend a great amount of time on foreign forums. The UK people do have it & some have had problems such as we have. They do not import as much as they did & they stopped having as many problems.
The larger breeders have everything to lose while I don't. I am not a breeder & don't stand to lose money off of breeder stock. Of course they will fight back. CheriS has been fighting a losing battle for awhile now & she gave up for the most part.
When I search for something, I don't stop until I get all of the answers. I have asked for participation from larger breeders so we can get more data. All I get is stabbed for requesting that people test. I will ask again. Why is everyone so scared of learning the truth & finding out more information on their colonies?
Denise is not testing this year. At the time we spoke on the phone, out of respect for her since we had emailed several times & she said she would email me or mail me the results, I honestly thought that she would. She has been beat up enough here so giving her the benefit of the doubt is what I had intended to do until she proved me wrong. I fully expected to receive those results. So oh well.

Surprise, surprise...

I honestly don't know if she ever tested. Maybe we will never know unless she ever comes out with it. I tried & gave her a way out. It did not work out. There is nothing I can do about it. No one can say that I didn't try. Besides, she never said that her tests were conducted at the U. of Florida anyway. Where did you ever get that from? I wanted to protect her privacy, & she may have tested. If you all harrassed her vet like she claimed, then, personally I don't blame her for not releasing them to me or to anyone else. You all have a way of mobbing people.
Tammy, when did you go to vet school? The last time I remember you weren't a vet so where is your expertise? You had an entirely positive colony that you put down, remember? Why did you not keep them & let them live out their lives & do some research of your own like Tere has done? Wouldn't that make you guilty of destroying your colony then?
All of my records that I have are verified through Lou Ann Miller but I will not disclose them on here, period. No PCR's just fecals.
You Tammy for someone I thought was trying to help out, you sure have a negative attitude saying I am over my head, etc. Who made you the expert though? I never once claimed to be an expert. I saw a need & I went through with it, knowing what I was facing. I have friends who have lost so much with their Dragons & I just wanted to help.
The claim of my client who was harrassed did file a police report, fyi, so do not tell me that my claims are false. They only traced the package to a particular state, but no address. How convenient I say.
Everything I do is for the animals. I have no personal interests like you do, I am not a breeder so I don't stand to lose money like you do, thus that is why everyone is trying to discredit people who actually are trying to help out.

Tracie

Tracie, we are not trying to be mean...but you are not a breeder. You lack the expertise to have the arguments that you are trying to have. You don't even have a positive dragon, supposedly. How on earth could you make the claims that you make? Is it just based on the panicked statements of a couple of people who probably failed miserably in the husbandry department, who were looking for an excuse to cover up their shortcomings? There are several breeders here that are telling you that you are wrong. Perhaps you should just accept that. WE know what we are talking about - YOU do not. How in the heck do you think we could all stay in business if we were selling sickly, dying animals? We wouldn't, and we are not! It is that simple. Now...PLEASE try to think this through logically before you continue to make a bigger arse of yourself than you already have.

Jamie

Tracie,
Your rants make no sense what so ever, you make it out like you didn't bring this upon yourself? I think now is the time you bring up how many cases you have documented where entire colonies died from Adeno and where these massive die offs occurred and when? I guarantee you that I can probably count them on one hand, and they were due to other issues beside adeno! Most of your information is all talk, and yes I agree with Ernie you do give great advice with everything bearded dragon related except Adeno... And you still haven't answered why you want all of the breeders to test for Adeno when they don't have any sick animals? And to make things easier you should just assume we all have Adeno positive animals since negative ones from what I understand are so few and far in between. So if we all have positive dragons and our dragons are healthy and so are our offspring then why should we test? To appease your newest game or challenge? I think you love this stuff, you have created a nation wide panic among the new owners in the hobby and they don't know any better than to listen to someone on a forum with more experience than they do! And now that you are a moderator on bd.org you should be handling things a little more delicately and with more fense than you have been especially in the breeding section! I believe you stated,

No do not put her back in with your male. What are your intentions, to become a breeder?

Now what is that suppose to mean, you shouldn't be attacking peoples actions even if they make a mistake! You as as moderator are suppose to help individuals that don't know any better, and guide them in the right direction not make them feel stupid!

You still have avoided 90% of the questions asked, I think you need to sit down with a cup of coffee and open up two pages and start answering questions of those that want answers from you. If done correctly more people might take you seriously about your Adenovirus crusade, but with your current activist approach no one in their right mind will be looking at you seriously when it comes to Adeno. Why should anyone believe you versus a breeder that has been dealing with dragons on a daily basis for a long time, and I can't wait until someone else posts up information that shows some Vets and a certain Dr is sick of hearing about Adenovirus because it's not a problem! If it's not killing even 5% of the population then it's not a problem and I'm sure 2.5% of those deaths are husbandry related!

Anthony

Originally Posted by Drache613

I honestly don't have much to add that I haven't already said in previous posts.
Try telling the breeders who have lost entire colonies that Adeno does not kill dragons, you obviously have not had that luck yet. I hope that you don't, really. Adeno does kill so you should not say that it does not. No, not all of the time as we know, but, it can & it will.

Who??? Who lost their entire collection because of AV? I do believe that people put their animals down because you and Sherry scared them. So as the protector of the dragons you should be very proud of yourself. You managed to have people actually kill their healthy dragons over something you still know nothing about. Congratulations Tracie your doing a bang up job!

Originally Posted by Drache613

As far as documentation, you obviously are missing the portion of Dr. Jacobson's report which says it is recommended NOT to breed known Adeno positives & if they are sold, it is the ethical thing to disclose that information to the client. So I guess it is ok if you don't know if they are positive or negative so then you don't have to to disclose anything. That is not very honest. People deserve to know, either way. Just because a dragon may be positive doesn't necessarily mean that they will not purchase, but they need to be given a choice, that's all. You all are not giving them the choice.

What documentation are you talking about? Unless there is something else out there that I was unaware of I thought that the document you are speaking of was directed at a single individual who's name I will not mention because you ran that poor guy off too. From what I understand it was Dr. Jacobson's advice TO THAT BREEDER not to breed until his problems were resolved. Somehow this "document" has become the bible to people like you. Besides that, again it is just a recommendation based on thoughts and not fact!

The next thing you proceeded to say is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Not testing is lying and taking people's right to choose away? Absolutely absurd! By telling someone that I do not test is being as honest as possible. Now if I was testing Positive dragons and telling people they were negative then yes, that would be dishonest, IMHO. That being said let's move on to choices. People can make a choice to purchase their dragon from me knowing full well that we don't test, or they could choose from another breeder, that would be their choice. No one has taken away anybody's right to choose. If they decide not to buy from anyone at all, well then again they would make that choice. Lot's of choices available.

Originally Posted by Drache613

I have nothing to gain from this, I am not a breeder. I have simply wanted to help some of the few ethical breeders who no longer breed because of everyone's attitude. Just because I don't conform to everyone's same attitude does not mean that I cannot try to continue to do research.
Do you want answers? If so, how are we supposed to get any if no one will test? What is everyone so afraid of, finding out the truth or spending a few dollars to test?
We all want to know the answers, whatever they will be.

Let's look at your last statement in a different light. You said that the ethical breeders no longer breed because of everyone's attitudes? Do you mean that maybe you have brain washed them in to thinking that AV was going to kill their colony and that is why they no longer breed? That doesn’t make them ethical at all, it makes them ignorant people that took your word with no documentation to support your argument.

Originally Posted by Drache613

As I have said, I have friends who have spent thousands just to keep their dragons alive & for some people a positive dragon with health problems is just not an option due to finances.
If you think that I am in the wrong, that is your opinion. I will continue on what my goals are & you can go your way, not a problem.

Well I am sorry for your friends loss. Unfortunately though, AV didn’t kill their dragons. Really their problems could have been avoided with proper husbandry. It really is sad.

Jeff

Hello,

In case no one realizes this I was NOT on Fauna boards when the initial Adeno outbreak happened when Tere, Wendy & others lost their entire colonies. So none of that is even relevant information because I did not talk to anyone on this board before the last year or so.
Didn't you just tell me Jeff, in an email that you lost alot of dragons was it last year, due to a bacterial infection from what you thought was hornworm chow? The klebsiella & enterobacter aerogenes bacteria was one thing that you mentioned. They get those bacteria because their immune system is depressed. It is found in AIDS patients, which also have low immune systems.
I know of quite a few dragons with those same bacterias, that were traced back to the chow. Klebsiella has a 50% death rate, even with medication. All of those health problems are secondary complications caused by having a suppressed immune system. Since you did not have them tested for AV, now you cannot claim that they did or did not have it. You also sold a breeder to Anthony also, who she passed away shortly after he got her & she had passed away from the same type of symptoms. He said he never had her tested either, because I did ask him.
I still have no idea why you all want to breed animals with compromised immune systems? No it would not wipe out adeno negative dragons because they would not have compromised immune systems.
Jeff would not tell anyone that he lost all of those dragons because he doesn't want anyone to know. That is dishonest. I never tell anyone to put their dragon down with Adeno. Besides I know plenty of people that have managed to pull their positive dragons out & actually gotten them semi healthy now.
You all are still the same. You attack Tere, Wendy, & anyone else who doesn't agree with you & is trying to do something different. You managed to run CheriS off too. They come forward to tell everyone what had happened, & you attack them like vultures.
As for my quote from the breeder on BD.org, he had been told by lots of others to separate his dragons as his female was being overbred. Or, do you not believe in overbreeding?
I am referring to the U. of Florida document posted right here on this forum where it specifically states it is recommended not to breed positive dragons, & if done, disclosure should take place prior to purchase.



Tracie

Originally Posted by Drache613

Hello,

Well Anthony, such a fine example to bring to the board. First off, joining MY society, then lying & going behind my back about it after talking to other people saying that it is not a problem. I really am disappointed with how you have handled yourself. I have talked to several breeders, yes, larger breeders. I am not a phone person most of the time.
Go ahead & breed. I know all of you all are networking, etc, just to discredit me. I really don't care. If you want to continue to spread it, then there is nothing I can do.

Come on Tracie, I couldnt tell you the last time I spoke with Tammy, I have never spoken to Jamie, and I have had limited contact with Anthony. Look how long I have been a member and how many post's I have. I started this thread because I have sat on the side lines and have seen the threads turn into AV attacks. Tracie people need to be more responsible and take credit for their own actions. Adeno relieves everyone of their own responsability to the dragons. It is a scape goat for ignorance and I'm sick of reading about it. No one is plotting against you, this was a time bomb that was ready to explode at any time. If it wasnt this thread it would have been another one. This is long over due.

Originally Posted by Drache613

Yes, actually I have been in contact with several vets from Australia. Some have said there were a few cases, but nothing like here in the US.
I will continue to try & educate & encourage those who want to test for the better of the species & health. Why do you not care about spreading disease, because of you pocketbook?.

You have been in contact with vets in Australia, then you must know it is in the wild too right? This is nature. It is in so many living species it's incredable. Nature will find a way. The difference between captive dragons and wild ones are that in the wild nature is relentless. Genetically inferior dragons that are too weak to dig themselves out will still hatch in captivity. In the wild only the strong survive. In captivity we cuddle the little ones that will never thrive. We give them a chance that they would never get if they hatched in the wild. The strong thrive and the week perish. It's cruel but it's nature.

Originally Posted by Drache613

She has already been harrassed anyway so you have already gotten your way by shoving your biased views around.
Personally it is the other way around guys. You shove your views around to everyone else saying it is not a problem, when, it is.

Tracie, how long have your biased views been shoving people around? You have got to be kidding me. You say it is a problem when it is not. How many dragons have you bred? How do you know so much about this? Live with dragons, watch them, learn their reactions, watch my dragons and tell me that they should not breed. We have NEVER lost a dragon to a cause that was not identified. Any losses we had were proven out when we had the post mortem necropsy. As in my case that you mentioned I guess 4 dragons that went down hill overnight at the same time and less then 2 days later were dead was probably AV right? You will not win Tracie. So lets see 4 dragons of different age, all ate the same food, died the same way in 2 days and have proven kidney and liver failure was a massive AV coinsodence? I can with out question say that this WAS NOT AV. no way no how.

You may also want to get your facts straight. I never sold Anthony a dragon that died. But wowee what a nice shot you almost had there.

Originally Posted by Drache613

Jeff would not tell anyone that he lost all of those dragons because he doesn't want anyone to know. That is dishonest.

What should I have done advertise it? My situation also had nothing to do with honesty at all. I did not want the company that I get my worms from compromised. We worked it out and we both moved forward. So you feel that any time a breeder has a problem that breeder should go and place an advertisement on the local cable channels and let everyone know that they had a problem that was no fault of theirs, that would be the honest thing to do? Just wondering how you might have handeled that situation.

Again, Anthony DID NOT BUY A DRAGON FROM ME THAT DIED! I'm just trying to be honest here :-)

Jeff

Tracie,


The correct response would have been "yes, Tammy I told you an untruth about Denise's results from University of Florida" that is all.... it is a big deal because you are the head of a factual society and are responsible for truth...there is no truth and PATS has absolutely no credibility.

I did not have an entirely positive colony..there you go with false and incorrect information again. Have you not just learned to VERIFY....can you learn anything? This is written permission to contact Lou Ann and Dr. Jacobs to confirm this. You bet I put down the positive animals... in October of 2006, I thought I must due to information at that time and to protect the animals with negatives sitting here in these cages. At that time I thought it was an epidemic and I would not contribute to this, I made what I thought was an ethical and honest decision and I will not speak about this any longer, NO ONE knows the misery I have been through over my own stupidity of not doing proper discovery before that tragedy.

I did not go to vet school for dragons, true. I am well qualified to give out advice on breeding, and dragon care ( I am not an expert on the virus..I was speaking of dragon care)..find out who I am before saying silly statements like that. Back in the old days there was Bob Mallioux, Joe King, Pete Weiss, Darryl Cook, Raphael Gonzales and a few others I did not know working with these animals (Ron Tremper importing the first captive breds from the Frankfurt Zoo in 1985 I learned..those pretty red ones that everyone thinks we inbred to get..yeah right). My name was Tammy Cook before I married and no we did not know of adenovirus, I am sure the 4 original importers I know of did not know of it either, how could this occur to them? Failures to keep these dragons happened when we tried to figure out how to get them to breed and tried to get the eggs to hatch, which did not work out, we didn't know exactly how to feed them, it was trial and error..the brumation thing had everyone in phone meetings forever and arguments. These things are still being perfected, no one is an expert and certainly not me, but I am qualified to give out advice I gained from success and failure from my family and not from someone else's care sheet or a book. I made that comment because I have seen you give out incorrect information on breeding (a dragon laying infertile eggs) and on an aussie form about male sexual age breeding and prolapse that was not correct at all and not something you are qualified to give out advice over. Several vets call here asking for advice or information on breeding, vets in Germany call here as well..has a vet called you needing advice for a client? I can palpate one of my females and know right when vitellogenesis happens because I have done it so very often and many things like this through necessity and lots of practice.That doesn't really matter I was trying to tell you gently that your ego has now traveled in front of your knowledge to the point of giving out advice on things you have no experience with.

The word "client" is unnatural..what is this client thing? Who are you to have clients regarding this virus? A client pays for a service..are you being paid for your knowledge on this virus? You are not in it for the animals but possibly for recognition, you are on the snake forums giving advice, the turtle forums giving advice, the dragon global forums giving advice.

Slandering breeders on dragon forums who "spread" this virus knowingly..that is not for the animals, this is egomaniac.

I am trying to help, now that I am reasonable and not playing the blame game like I did several years ago because I believed the wrong and false information. Sandfire and Dachiu and whoever else spread this virus around, do not export the other countries will get it from us, breeders are responsible. There was NO research made before making such utter tripe. Good and respectable people were slandered......this is what my negative attitude is about...just that and only that. The rest of it we all know now. We brought it in from Australia .....no one did anything deceitful. It is a virus and predates man or beast.


Tracie, I don't want to hurt you with the things I am saying but for God's sake you have to think rationally. The facts are before you..no one did anything to these animals on purpose. This is a product of captivity and these dragons are NOT exempt from the laws of this planet the rest of us must submit to. Stop slandering and harassing these breeders with this new information out, it could get quite ugly. Enough.

Originally Posted by JeffnDes

I do believe that people put their animals down because you and Sherry scared them. So as the protector of the dragons you should be very proud of yourself. You managed to have people actually kill their healthy dragons over something you still know nothing about. Congratulations Tracie your doing a bang up job!

I certainly can't speak for what anyone else did, but I DID NOT put my animals down, and if I would have, it most certainly wouldn't have been because someone else told me to. Anyone who put down animals without thinking first about why they would do such a thing is the one to blame, not Tracie.

Originally Posted by JeffnDes

Let's look at your last statement in a different light. You said that the ethical breeders no longer breed because of everyone's attitudes? Do you mean that maybe you have brain washed them in to thinking that AV was going to kill their colony and that is why they no longer breed? That doesn’t make them ethical at all, it makes them ignorant people that took your word with no documentation to support your argument.

And since you brought it up, I can confirm that I had absolutely no contact with Tracie or Wendy or CheriS when I came forward stating that my colony tested positive.

Originally Posted by JeffnDes

Well I am sorry for your friends loss. Unfortunately though, AV didn’t kill their dragons. Really their problems could have been avoided with proper husbandry. It really is sad.
Jeff

Uh, hate to tell you this, but lack of proper husbandry didn't kill either mine or Wendy's dragons. I, for one, would appreciate it if you didn't comment about my particular situation when you have not one clue about who I am, or how I keep my dragons.

That being said, maybe you guys need to stop this asinine "mission" that you're on, harassing people, attempting to call people out, whatever you want to call it. I understand there are differences of opinion, but mailing dead animals? WTF has this come to?

Originally Posted by Saladragon

I certainly can't speak for what anyone else did, but I DID NOT put my animals down, and if I would have, it most certainly wouldn't have been because someone else told me to. Anyone who put down animals without thinking first about why they would do such a thing is the one to blame, not Tracie.



And since you brought it up, I can confirm that I had absolutely no contact with Tracie or Wendy or CheriS when I came forward stating that my colony tested positive.



Uh, hate to tell you this, but lack of proper husbandry didn't kill either mine or Wendy's dragons. I, for one, would appreciate it if you didn't comment about my particular situation when you have not one clue about who I am, or how I keep my dragons.

That being said, maybe you guys need to stop this asinine "mission" that you're on, harassing people, attempting to call people out, whatever you want to call it. I understand there are differences of opinion, but mailing dead animals? WTF has this come to?

I'm not sure what the heck you are talking about but at no point did anyone bring your name up. I really have no idea who you are nor do I care, hence I did not comment on your situation at any time but thanks for the clarification!

Originally Posted by bloodbankdragon

”Adeno is just like A.I.D.S.”

A.I.D.S. Kills 100% of everyone it infects… Adeno virus typically has NO symptoms and lays dormant the entire life of a healthy dragon. Humans have Adeno and were not culling children and quarantining towns. Its just not a serious virus. It kills the weak.

So then It should be considered a virus likened to HIV.

HIV does not kill ( to my knowledge) and can remain dormant for a persons entire life. When it DOES become active, it becomes AIDS, and THAT is when it kills.

*edit

This should have been posted, Phrased as a question, rather than a statement.

Originally Posted by JeffnDes

I'm not sure what the heck you are talking about but at no point did anyone bring your name up. I really have no idea who you are nor do I care, hence I did not comment on your situation at any time but thanks for the clarification!

Forgive me if im wrong guys, but i believe that she made This comment to you

Uh, hate to tell you this, but lack of proper husbandry didn't kill either mine or Wendy's dragons. I, for one, would appreciate it if you didn't comment about my particular situation when you have not one clue about who I am, or how I keep my dragons.

Because of This comment from you.

Originally Posted by JeffnDes
Well I am sorry for your friends loss. Unfortunately though, AV didn’t kill their dragons. Really their problems could have been avoided with proper husbandry. It really is sad.
Jeff

Again, forgive me if im wrong here, but thats how it appears to me. If this was already figured out. well, on with the show