Adeno Thoughts

did something wrong with the post above with the quotes the 1st and 3rd paragraphs are quotes from Jeffs above post. Thanks, Charlie

Hi everyone,
Just wanted to say that I found the information posted by the breeders here to be far more informative than a lot of posts that I read. I feel like I stepped in the middle of the AV situation 2.5 years ago when I got my dragons from Dachiu. I read a lot of posts on different forums and most people were occupied with the AV threads.

I rarely check the BD forum here on Fauna since Etouffee died. I've been trying to do my own thing with a hodgepodge of forum posts and caresheets. I decided earlier in this thread to go to the breeder's sites and look at their caresheets.

So far I've lost 2 of my 3 dragons from Dachiu the female about 18 months old and the female that was supposed to be a male and had always been pudgy laid a clutch of eggs. No real weight variations. Up until about few weeks ago I recorded weekly weights.

I had the remaining Dachiu female and the established breeder male (supposedly Sandfire) checked by a reptile vet and had fecals run. The male didn't have anything, no parasites, no coccidia...yet he has diarrhea a majority of the time. I believe that is somewhat related to his position in a well traveled area of the house as well as other things. I believe that the point about humidity could be applicable here.

The female, Elvira, has high coccidia count and pinworms. We just finished the meds for that. I'm cleaning out their enclosures and I was planning to go with paper towels, basking areas - two bricks with tile and a piece of petrified wood. Water bowl. Food bowl. ReptileUV MVB 100 watt bulbs - the recommended distance from the basking site. Spot bright white halogen or flood less than 50 w for the summer. I'm moving Bob in to Boo's house after all the cleaning is done. He will be in the same room with Elvira so they can see each other.

I am not breeding this year. I froze all eggs that were laid. I joined up with PATS and agreed to get fecal EMs, I have my test kits to send in to Lou Ann. I have a couple of samples in the freezer but I'm going to wait for fresh ones after the cage change. I will have before and after husbandry changes samples depending on the lifespan of frozen BD poo for viability in testing. My BDs seemed to have a weird burmation (we've had weird weather - hot then freezing to everything in between) this year... I am basing my "weird" opinion on the books/caresheets/posts that I read. I had a hard time getting poo for testing during soaks. I would find one in the cage and I didn't know how old it was so I couldn't use it or I would have already sent the first EM samples for the 2x year testing required by PATS.

I had necropsy done on both deceased BDs. I have histologic reports from Texas A&M. Etouffee's results have offered on prior AV posts and I sent Vickie a copy. I told her that I would let her know about any further test results. I intend to do that when I get them. I do have Boo's necropsy report but the age is incorrect and I have to ask them to correct the typo. The gross necropsy told me how Boo died, I wanted to check for AV and went with histology instead of the vet checking into sending PCR samples to Jacobsen.

I don't plan to try to become a big breeder....we are planning to open a reptile shop and I'm "learning from the ground up". Most of my various species of animals are CB a lot of them came to me as babies. I want to observe them grow, take care of them, enjoy them and be able to actually answer questions when someone wants to know how to take care of an animal they are considering as a pet. I want to carry supplies that reptile owners need when they need them because the chain petstore here is out of stock on what I need almost all the time. I want to provide my own CB stock for sale in the store.

I would love to have any input from the "breeders", after all you deal with way more situations that I would ever come across as a future breeder with a shrinking population of breedable lizards!

I say thank you and that I appreciate all of you coming on here and speaking up. The husbandry information you are giving everyone will truly benefit many people in my opinion.

Vickie, I still have Elvira - I plan to test her - with EM this year. I will keep you posted.

Mad4You2,

Hello, you didn't mention what type of cage they are in, what are the basking temps and retreat temps and what city and state you live in (region is very important). Gotta feed a good salad..no lettuce but collards and vegetables mixed in, at least every other day (more if dragon will take it) and insects a few days a week..we like superworms for our adults. You must change the dragon's conditions throughout the year inside his habitat, a constant habitat (meaning no changes in temps, photoperiod..etc will shorten a dragon's life and make him ill). I don't know about MVB we don't use them and my dad squawks when I bring up the subject..not sure why, a reptisun 10.0 strip 14" above basking area dragon's head is good though..or you can sit the animal in the sun in a little tub for 45 min every three days for additional vitamin supplementation (that is enough even to give him the D he needs to utilize his nutrients properly)I don't have a lot of this in my care sheet and I am sorry for it..I really should, there's just no way I can put our years of dragons in a care sheet otherwise my care sheet would be a book.

What temps he basks , for how long, when do you turn heat down? How long do you make his day and what is his calendar (meaning what months in his habitat do you make his winter, spring, summer and fall, right now is early summer for my dragons..we are in S. FL, they live inside and the humidifier is running 24hrs a day ambient dragon room (outside of their cages )temps go from 78F at 6:00am to 85F at noon through 4:00pm and then from 4:00- to 5:00 it drops to 85F dragons have an 11hr day this time of year..these temperatures are outside of the cages in the dragon room..very very important for these conditions outside of dragon cages..inside dragon cages varies on age and reproduction stage of said dragons, but dragons in the awake room go from 85F to 100F from 6:00am to 7:00am and then stay at 100F until early afternoon and then the heat is taken away no later than 1:00pm..they run on 90F ambient temps inside dragon cages until 5:00pm..we have quite a lot of 10-12yr old dragons and some still breeding, they live a very long time when we learned to change their calendar and drop the temps from 110F/100F down by 10 degrees. This is tweaked for every "season" we give the dragons, our seasons are 4months each..I can't type out the whole calendar but you can call and I can give an outline if interested.

If conditions are too hot and too dry for a long period of time a rise in parasites will always happen (not to mention he will not be able to shed or the shed will stick to his skin and not come off or be so thick you have to soak or help him..that is not good..also do the dragons have shed plugs in the nostrils? if they do not rub these out or you do not take them out, the dragon will get a resp. disorder will gape, wheeze and all because he has shed plugs in the nose..remove them and if not too late and pneumonia has not set in then he will recover)..now if the dragon is not showing any signs of parasites being a problem for him..I would not treat the parasites...if this particular dragon has abnormally high counts of parasites and is showing distress then I would treat this dragon..do not give probiotics if you are treating for coccidia and nematodes (pins, hooks, etc) this will inhibit the action of the drug and you will have to treat much longer than necessary...this is not proper and will cause you much heartache with this animal. You can treat with probiotics (best way is to use human probiotics one capsule dissolved in 1 cup of water and then 3 drops from an eyedropper or 1/4 ml once per day for 7 days).after that the probiotic causes loose stools and dehydration. I have done a 2yr study using 300 dragons to see if probiotics were beneficial for long term and they were actually detrimental, but used in the way above was beneficial, my horses take probiotics everyday and it is good, dragons are not horses and did not give the same response. The role of coccidia is to eat the yeast in the gut..yeast feeds on coccidia and coccidia feeds on yeast...there must be balance, when you loose the natural function for whatever reason of these two gut flora you have a sick or dead dragon.

Another note, if you have other species of reptiles, (or go to shows and touch animals and then wipe your shirt..etc. please don't go to shows and touch animals or lean up against vendor tables and such..terrible nasties come home with you)..please check for crypto it is a bacteria that other reptiles can have and some species will not have problems (a gecko for instance), but for a dragon this can be quite dangerous, they get very smelly and wet fecals (that will be mistook for coccidia infection) and the urate will be yellowish and small or nonexistent. The only way to detect is to send this fecal off for an acid fast test it is too small to see with a normal micro. This infection is not noticed by many vets and usually will kill the dragon if not treated, even then treatment is not always successful as it laughs at most antibiotics.

What about supplements? One example out of dozens I can give you but can't type out: Too much calcium will build up in the arteries in the heart and you will find a dragon dead in his cage in the morning with no prior warnings (sometimes they will show calcemic tetany..much like the symptoms of not enough calcium..too much supplements or too little supplements have the same symptoms)..and will your vet open the heart to dissect? many don't, they dont think about that..but should. Some bloodlines (I dont know why) can't absorb certain vitamins and minerals in powder form..some animals can not absorb powdered calcium carbonate,magnesium, or zinc (like myself) and must use a liquid coral calcium with liquid magnesium and zinc..especially some hypos and quite a lot of the orange glow line..if your animal is not absorbing these minerals he will get sick and yes die.

Anyhow a few things that are really easy to fix that could be looked at. I think that 2 out of 3 dragons to lose is really strange. We breed lots of babies every year and have 1% or less mortality rate and half of our breeders are over the age of 7yrs and still breeding. Dragons are sooo hard to kill and they just don't get sick really..a truly sick dragon (not something stressed by habitat) is uncommon...so I would put your head together with your vets, call some long time established breeders and absolutely drill them about their set ups, ages of their dragons, feed, make a huge list for your dr. and other breeders to answer and then see if they compare or are similar to how the dragons live at your house.

I wish you best of luck and so sorry you have lost some dragons..I hope you find out what is causing this.

PS, It certainly sounds different than some of the books,but please remember that some of the vets that wrote the books, were certainly not breeders and did not even own a dragon..15yrs ago we read the books and followed and killed many dragons with habitat stress, it took dad 3yrs to breed them successfully and this last 11 years we have learned a tremendous amount from the dragons not really from the books though

Tammy,
I just had my wife read this for me :-) Fantastic post! Many many great tips and awesome advice. You covered a tremendous amount of valuable information.
Jeff

meant to say: you can treat with probiotics 48hrs after the last dose of antibiotic or wormer was given

Originally Posted by JeffnDes

Tammy,
I just had my wife read this for me :-) Fantastic post! Many many great tips and awesome advice. You covered a tremendous amount of valuable information.
Jeff

Tammy, maybe you SHOULD write a book on dragon care. Your wealth of knowlege is amazing!

Jamie

It's always about money, its obvious that breeders are threatened by the information given. Whether it is a mix of opinion and ethics and facts, it is still there and it does exist. It is also obvious by the previous posts of some breeders that they do not really care if the dragons have adeno, they want to make money and money alone. Adeno does affect dragons differently, it is still very new to all of us. To compare the virus to that of humans is stupid because there are many different strands of this virus. We can live with it. Knowing what is known about the virus, is it not ethical to have your breeders tested??? To give up and say screw it i want to continue to rip people off for their hard earned money. Just because someone wants one of your dragons, are you not suppose to be responsible and inform them of the virus that is out there, send out a warning? Let them know that i am still charging $200 or whatever for a possibly infected lizard. If our conditions in America with breeding these dragons are so well, how come they have this virus?? They should be in tip top shape and be fat and healthy, granted most of them are. It doesnt change the fact that when push comes to shove, it is all about the dollar bill. Ethics is thrown aside to make money. It is seen in the posts in plain sight. Its ashame really that so many people think this. They have to go on the defensive to downplay the virus, save them some more money. Educated people make smart purchases, uneducated people will buy what they see on a whim like stated previously. Thats all for my rant. Take it how you want. Probably by picking apart each piece of my paragraph with another opinions, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

Originally Posted by hockeyballz30

It's always about money, its obvious that breeders are threatened by the information given. Whether it is a mix of opinion and ethics and facts, it is still there and it does exist. It is also obvious by the previous posts of some breeders that they do not really care if the dragons have adeno, they want to make money and money alone. Adeno does affect dragons differently, it is still very new to all of us. To compare the virus to that of humans is stupid because there are many different strands of this virus. We can live with it. Knowing what is known about the virus, is it not ethical to have your breeders tested??? To give up and say screw it i want to continue to rip people off for their hard earned money. Just because someone wants one of your dragons, are you not suppose to be responsible and inform them of the virus that is out there, send out a warning? Let them know that i am still charging $200 or whatever for a possibly infected lizard. If our conditions in America with breeding these dragons are so well, how come they have this virus?? They should be in tip top shape and be fat and healthy, granted most of them are. It doesnt change the fact that when push comes to shove, it is all about the dollar bill. Ethics is thrown aside to make money. It is seen in the posts in plain sight. Its ashame really that so many people think this. They have to go on the defensive to downplay the virus, save them some more money. Educated people make smart purchases, uneducated people will buy what they see on a whim like stated previously. Thats all for my rant. Take it how you want. Probably by picking apart each piece of my paragraph with another opinions, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

Wow. And how many dragons do you have? And you've been breeding them and raising them for how many years?

Originally Posted by hockeyballz30

It's always about money, its obvious that breeders are threatened by the information given. Whether it is a mix of opinion and ethics and facts, it is still there and it does exist. It is also obvious by the previous posts of some breeders that they do not really care if the dragons have adeno, they want to make money and money alone. Adeno does affect dragons differently, it is still very new to all of us. To compare the virus to that of humans is stupid because there are many different strands of this virus. We can live with it. Knowing what is known about the virus, is it not ethical to have your breeders tested??? To give up and say screw it i want to continue to rip people off for their hard earned money. Just because someone wants one of your dragons, are you not suppose to be responsible and inform them of the virus that is out there, send out a warning? Let them know that i am still charging $200 or whatever for a possibly infected lizard. If our conditions in America with breeding these dragons are so well, how come they have this virus?? They should be in tip top shape and be fat and healthy, granted most of them are. It doesnt change the fact that when push comes to shove, it is all about the dollar bill. Ethics is thrown aside to make money. It is seen in the posts in plain sight. Its ashame really that so many people think this. They have to go on the defensive to downplay the virus, save them some more money. Educated people make smart purchases, uneducated people will buy what they see on a whim like stated previously. Thats all for my rant. Take it how you want. Probably by picking apart each piece of my paragraph with another opinions, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

Did you even read this post made by Dachiu? Does it seem to you that they are feeling threatened? Give me a break...

Although adenovirus is believed to be widespread throughout the captive population, that does not mean that a small-scale negative tested colony cannot be maintained. I think that both sides of the “adeno argument” were actually looking forward to this information - with multiple verified tests to back it up.

The reality is, most dragons are positive - including ours. The theory of adeno-viral exposure means that just 1 positive dragon in a colony = all dragons within that colony have been exposed. They are all considered contaminated - until proven otherwise. There is currently no testing method available which will identify a negative dragon; therefore any dragon that has had direct or indirect contact with a positive tested animal is presumed to be positive. (I say “presume” meaning - to assume as true in the absence of proof to the contrary.)
For us, in order to even entertain the idea of maintaining a negative colony we would have to dispose of all of our animals, burn our cages, throw away all of our bins, lighting equipment, supplements, etc… essentially move our whole facility from our home to elsewhere and pray that we can find long-term, negative tested dragons. It is not going to happen. Certainly not when our animals are healthy and thriving.

On the other hand, we believe it is possible that a small, closed collection may continue to test long-term Av negative. If you have a small colony and are undertaking the challenge of eradicating adenovirus from your collection - we have a proposal for you. This is a serious offer and we have no time and/or patience for games - ALL information will be verified and made available for public perusal.

-- Provide 3 negative EM results (which we will verify) on each of the adult dragons in your colony taken over the course of 6 months to a year. Each animal must be identified for individual sample results. We’d also like to see 1 group sampling of 4-8 week old babies tested with negative results. If 1 EM returns positive results, we will confirm with a PCR to determine if a mistake was possibly made. (+ PCR result means you’re +, - PCR result means continue EM testing.)
-- We will then cover the cost of 3 PCR tests throughout the following year - at intervals of our choice - ‘mid’ and ‘end’ breeding season, when their systems are taxed. 2 PCR fecal samples must be collected by your veterinarian through a cloacal wash. The 3rd PCR is to be collected from the latter clutches of offspring. We do require open communication with the breeder and their veterinarian and will gladly pay the veterinarian for services rendered.

This is not only an opportunity for someone to achieve multiple negative results - both EM and PCR… since in the end, we will all gain some information.

Originally Posted by draggintails

If conditions are too hot and too dry for a long period of time a rise in parasites will always happen (not to mention he will not be able to shed or the shed will stick to his skin and not come off or be so thick you have to soak or help him..that is not good..also do the dragons have shed plugs in the nostrils? if they do not rub these out or you do not take them out, the dragon will get a resp. disorder will gape, wheeze and all because he has shed plugs in the nose..remove them and if not too late and pneumonia has not set in then he will recover

This I do believe is a problem especially using sand as your substrate. I know that when we were keeping dragons on sand there was increased temps. inside the cages, as well as ambient room temps. I do believe that sand does much more damage then good and not for impaction reasons at all. It retains the heat, similar to a pizza oven that uses bricks. But not only does it retain the heat, it also creates an extremely dry situation that can very easily turn into the problems that Tammy has posted in the quote above. But not only that it is very unsanitary IMO, if parasites are a problem which they will be with high temps. you can never rid the cage of them. But there's more, the super fine dust that gets airborn when the dragons move on it or when your sifting poop out, all gets breathed in by the animals AND you.

We found out early on that it easier to maintain cages and keep them clean looking, (only to the naked eye) using sand. I know sand is popular because it is esthetically nicer to look at. However I do not reccommend people to use sand for the reasons stated above. We now only use news paper. It is a pain to keep changing several times a day but we believe it is very sanitary and it's fairly simple but still rather time consuming. I would think the only thing better would be shelf liner that can be bleached daily. This was a PITA for us especially in the winter months so we have moved strictly to using paper. Aside from that we also wipe the cages clean several times daily using surgical scrub with a 2% Chlorhexedine solution. We dilute this to 1/10 (1 part chlorhexidine to 10 parts water) solution and have a spray bottle that is labled and we refill when needed. When the paper is removed so are the dragons, cages are sprayed on all sides and floor then wiped clean with paper towels. The old paper and towels are discarded. New paper is installed along with the dragons. We also use whole eggcrate pieces under the basking spots. The dragons like laying on this and these are also disposable.

All in all, this is much more work then sand, it is also more expensive (news papers, masking tape, eggcrats, and cleaning solution), but IME, it is a far better solution to sand. Just some random thoughts, but maybe it can be helfull. Also for us like Tammy mentioned, we really need to update our own caresheet as well. We'll get to work on that this weekend