Sunshinedragons

It seems pretty clear that Bruce is trying to divert attention from Sunshine Dragons and take as many cheap shots at Cheri S as possible. The only reason that he was singled out is because he admitted to selling babies that tested positive for the virus. Yes, they may never get sick. My 2 year old male Clyde never did. But, that does not mean that they are not carriers and not capable of spreading the virus. Is it an absolute? We do not know. Is it possible. Absolutely, it happened in my colony this season. To think that he would knowingly sell babies that could have the same end result as my experience just astounds me. I have a feeling we have not seen the last of Sunshine on the BOI. Give those babies a chance to grow up and I will bet that we will see people with non thriving dragons and/or future clutches being infected. I would think one should error on the side of caution and not choose the path Sunshine has. It is his choice to make and he will have to live with the consequences.

One more note on Cheri Smiths' credibility and integrity. I contacted her when I first started having babies die and went through the whole process of finding out the cause with her support. We both did not think it was adenovirus. The night I found out it was in fact adeno, I was devastated. And, Cheri was in the hospital being prepared for surgery the next day. Do you know that she found out and called me from the hospital to see how I was doing? She did that because she cares and knew how much I was going through. In addition, she never once told me what I should do about the virus. I went back in forth between just containing it and starting again next year, and with bringing it public to try and get the word out. She just listened and let me choose what I felt was best for my situation. To me, that speaks volumes for her character. I for one, am grateful that she has such a passion for bearded dragons and to do right by them. People may not always agree with her, but I do not think her motivation is anything other than a love for the species.

Whiskersmom: I wanted to let you know that Studly was one of my dragons. He was a Kaida (Dachiu) X Taro (Satyrday Reptiles) baby from 2003. I sold him to Chris Allen and he was bought by Sunshine when Chris sold his stock. I never tested while I was breeding but I do not believe that I had adeno in my stock. I would not worry about Studly. When he was produced I only had Kaida, Taro, and PD (from Joel Roberts) and the babies. Those babies were HEALTHY and isolated from everything.

I feel bad for everyone involved in this. I can't imagine having to put down sweet little baby dragons. Especially if they looked healthy. Wendy is a very strong and brave woman. I KNOW for a fact that she did everything always in the best intrest of the animals. I was with her as she set up her business and aquired her animals. ONLY the very best would do. I sold her and AWSOME AWSOME orange female that didn't grow very well. This animal was a BEAUTIFUL female. She was the color that most ads pretend to have. Wendy didn't breed her even though the babies would have had color and sold well. She gave her away to a non-breeding home. This adult virgin female could have sold for close to $1000 on the market as a breeder but thats not what Wendy does. She does the best. She has the cleanest and most organized facility. She provides the BEST food. She truely loves her babies. I am hurt and disgusted by the accusations of her having caused the adeno problems "due to poor husbandry" as Sunshine keeps saying. Of all the things, I think that is the WORST. I bet Wendy has cried GALLONS of tears over this. I have no problem saying she is likely to have the BEST husbandry conditions in the entire industry. I don't know Cheri well but I have watched her for years. I have never seen her act out of personal motivation...only for the species that she loves. She has done a lot for bearded dragons over the years. I know though that if Bruce is willing to attack Wendy's husbandry (he nows full well how much she cares for her animals) then his attacks on Cheri are likely baseless as well.

But, I also feel very bad for Bruce. I think selling the babies is the wrong decision. But how horrible for him to have had this hit his colony. They have a lot of animals and this is how they make their money. I would like to think that I would do the right thing in that position...but I certainly can't judge. It must be very hard for him. When I read his posts I am upset that he is avoiding the questions and issues but I can understand. How many of you would risk your families, your income, and everything? I can understand why he insists on selling the healthy looking babies. If your bills were due, your family was counting on you, and you were feeding healthy looking HUNGRY animals everyday, ask yourself really.....what would you do?

Like I said, I would like to say I would do the right thing. And the right thing is indeed NOT selling or selling only to people who fully understood the issue (really not selling at all is the right thing). But I can't say for sure. It is true that he would have to have all the breeders tested, all the positive ones moved, the facilities would likey have to be replaced at this large scale, and then he would have to start over. And, since neg doesn't mean 100% neg he would have to test again and again....If he admits to the seriousness of the disease, the fact that there IS a problem, and does the right thing the Sunshine Dragons is OUT OF BUSINESS. No business could survive what needs to be done... I feel really really bad for him. I think he has acted defensively and struck out, but he is cornered, thats what happens.

The fact that this virus has been found in Wendy's and Sunshines stock is very very scary indeed. The word needs to get out. Research needs to be done. There are no real answers. We know Adeno is bad, we know what it has done in other species, we know that it kills babies.... There is no question about the ethics of selling infected animals. But, to me it looks like the problem is already HUGE. What are we going to do with the infected animals? How can we stop the spread? Is the solution forcing breeders to destroy thier stock? Perhaps it is.... This all reminds me of the HYPP debate in Impressive bred quarter horses...

There will never be an agreement. Its a matter of eithics and opinions...

Kakadu
Jennifer Graef

Webslave or moderators

Can something be done to change the name and show who is really posting theses messages from Sunshine Dragons? The BIO account is in the name of Jon Kalish, a son and not the person using it. It use to be in Lauren and employee's name, he was called on that a year ago on FC BOI. The person posting these is Bruce Kalish, the father.

Sunshinedragons
Paid Participant

Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bucks County,Pa
Posts: 74
Name : Jonathan Kalish

I may be wrong, but I think that violates the rules of the full name disclosure and I question someone being able to run their son's reputations points into the red so far like Bruce has done.

This is not the first time that he is using a name not his to post on BOI and he was called on it a year ago when he was posting under the employees name. At that time he was asked to change it, he did.... but NOT to his name, it his son's name and he continues to post under a name not his.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ght=terri+fire

This reminded me of the Childs/Best mother/daughter routine, ( use the search on the site to look up that very long thread). While getting ready to write this post, I thought I would check and see what they were up too lately and found something on a KS ad they are running. What timing!! She is selling a male holdback dragon from SunshineDragons. What is of note is the female Dragon that is the mother of him and what who I know is Wendy Childs aka SpokaneLizardLady on here, has to say about the mother.

She states in that ad the mother was Starburst and she is claiming that she (Starburst) is dead and died from AGE. Starburst was a not an old dragon dying of age, she had many babies hatch recently. She was a prime age breeder.
Link for that ad http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=51&de=455991 there is more information there.

This was the pairing that I first approached Sunshine Dragons about that we thought one of them or both might be carriers for adenovirus, as several of their offspring had tested positive in EM test and a necropsy that were sold to other people and was related to the carrier dragon that Neverland Dragons found she had.

Starburst, Dante & Pyro, all are dead, all have babies being advertised in a mass emailing I have dated May 14, 2006 Subject: ANNUAL SPECTACULAR>Sapecials BABIES & ADULTS sent to & FOR> Mailing List..... so they all died very recently and I assume Bruce has to know they are dead. HE raves on and on about his care, so it is not lack of care, they did not die of age.

Bruce of SunshineDragons is selling babies that tested positive for adenovirus, some from these same now deceased parents. Yet, Bruce (not Jon ) wants to convince everyone there is no problem, no proof and call me names for saying different, for me posting a letter on my site and linked here from the same vet/researcher he was prior saying was telling him it was okay. Dr Jacobson denies it very clearly in that letter. My interest is in the animals, and future generations and owners that will be traumatically affected by his irresponsible actions that are SOLELY money motivated.

I feel empathy for Bruce having dragons dying off like this and facing this situation with adenovirus infected colony. That is why I unblocked my email and allowed his messages to come through when he found out they were positive. I would have worked with him as much as possible to find them homes for what we could and help he get restarted if he wanted. He lost any respect, when I caught him lying to me about selling them and then lying to the buyers. Look at the IBD thread on this forum about Mile High and B.W. Smith, see what happens when only 1 viral infected animal that appears healthy, is sent unknowingly into a clean, well run, unquestionable husbandry colony.... its heartbreaking. That is the same that happened to Wendy, who I thought was among the best in this county for husbandry, I still do and it is insulting that anything less is said of her care, so one man can hide behind his real motivation.

Now he starts trashiing the reseachers and wonder's why they will not respond to him? I know why they are not, I think he does too now, as I got another message from him. I thought I had him blocked everywhere, as what I have got from him is really nasty and no one should have to read that garbage. I forgot about the PM service here

Can anyone else do the math and tell me what you come up with or am I missing something here?

HI Cheri, You found out Pyro was dead? I didn't know Dante was dead too. I was told Starburst was dead and she was the mother of my 2 females. They were studly and starburst babies. I have had them around my male who is a Vegas x DeeDee baby. I guess I will be testing them. I just don't know if I should wait until they come out of brumation or not. I know that they say younger dragons until a year old don't go through it fully. I am going to ask the vet when I should do the test, if I should wait or do it now.

Brenda, you have babies under a year old that are brumation? Inside?

My girls were born in March of this year and my male was born in April. I was told that it's not exactly like brumation like the adults get but I was told that even young dragons go through something similar due to the change of weather.

To all Bearded Dragon Owners, Breeders, Hobby Breeders, Pet owners etc.

We are going to be flexible and change our position on Posting.

The posts are being written by Myself, Bruce Kalish…All of them!

Obviously with much confusion, inappropriate personal references, and information that is being questioned I must not be communicating very well. There is never an excuse for inappropriate behavior. Inappropriate behavior is inappropriate.

We know it is impossible that only 5-6 of our Babies that we sold could have died. It is impossible, just by percentages. We admit that. We also admit we were hobby breeders and have had a web site that went up approximately 3 years ago to date. Not that long a period, yet long enough to see the quality of Bearded Dragons, and responses we received have been nothing short of unbelievable


We ourselves have had mortalities…we know they must exist.

Regardless of our methods, or advice we received, we are being falsely accused as of” Doctoring it”.

Therefore we posted the headings and correspondence themselves, yet still we were accused of inaccurately positioning???

>>>>>>>“……We like her! I think this is all blown out of proportion. I was told to check mortality rates on babies...”>>from a quality professional long time breeder (only one of many we keep receiving)
We want to also check our Mortality rates.

Help us, we can’t find the Mortalities >>>>> Yes we have some of our own, Therefore we know there has to be others that may have happened. These are live animals. Some get sick...

Nevertheless we believe and do have evidence, significant feedback that the animals we have distributed are some of the healthiest, biggest, robust, and genetically sound Bearded Dragons that people have obtained. ,

Yet we have no, substantiated proof that we are distributing sickly, ill dying or diseased animals that are contaminating anything. We have no proof, or evidence that we are spreading any Black Plague Disease” very few studies, from very few “Experts” Innuendos, Rumors etc

>Based on rumors, innuendos, and a few studies that even the experts are not in agreement on, or know for sure. >We stopped distributing, Breeding, or taking orders for over a month. Yet we are expected to shut down indefinitely and stop distributing beautiful, healthy genetically sound dragons based on theories, rumors, contadictory studies etc.

Find our mortalities. Post them for everyone to see. Yet directly from the people that have them, No he said, she said hearsay, innuendos etc.

Regardless of the many and Various Medical and Scientific People & their “expert” qualifications we contacted > to research (which again we admittedly said we have not finalized). Our intentions are still a concern to many.

WE ALSO ADMIT MEDICINE AND SCIENCE IS NOT EXACT. Even the best studies may be proven wrong, especially in time. Yet about us or what we discovered this is what we go on until “we know otherwise…..

In a message dated 10/26/2006 9:18:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Charities316 writesCharities is the donation/Charitable division of Sunshinedragons)
In a message dated 10/17/2006 5:58:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, karenrl@vet.upenn.edu writes:


In a message dated 10/17/2006 5:58:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, karenrl@vet.upenn.edu writes:

Dear Bruce

First, let me say .....

You are a passionate and compassionate advocate for your beardies and your business.

You are trying to do what no one has ever done.

You care about enriching and improving more than just the beardies in your charge; you strive to improve the lots of all reptiles.

>We love people like this and we try very hard to work with them. We give away our services to these people as much as we can b/c we only want the best for
these animals. And it is a great way to teach our students.

Here are adenovirus facts:

It MAY BE in many colonies of beared dragons in the US.
It has not been found YET in wild bearded dragons.
No one can predict if a bearded dragon that is positive will die and/or transmit disease.
There is no test that can proclaim a bearded dragon totally free of this disease while the bearded dragon is alive.
It may not even cause disease.............
---------------------------------------------------------------------
*****Here is our simple answer- we just don't know how best to advice anyone with a beardie colony b/c the science has yet to be worked out. "
--------------------------------------------------------------
Negative results of test!

> If a Dragon test negative it is not necessarily truly negativeYou can get a false negative! You may then believe your Dragon doesn’t have Adeno yet it may!!!


Even the finest experts, Vets etc may re-evaluate their conclusions based on new information. It doesn’t matter if we worked with one of the top rated veterinarian universities, Ivy League or not they could be incorrect. We know that.

Based on concerns and only possibilities we stopped distributing, taking orders, breeding for more than a month while we researched and looked for the sick, ill dragons we had, or supposedly distributed. We couldn’t find them, this posting hasn’t uncovered them.

Where are they?

It appears we have now become the issue instead of the health debate. Yet we still can’t find or discover where those sick, ill dragons are.

Without any substantiated proof Just Theories of a Supposed “Black Plaque Disease?”

Those people have not E-mailed us or even posted!!! How would be able to correct our mistakes if the people that have Obtained them” (not people who say they heard of them or believe we are distributing sick, unhealthy, Dragons> no Hearsay please enough of that )

How do we know whether the advice we are following, not rumors or innuendos, is correct unless those people who’s colonies we supposedly “infected, with” Sick unhealthy Dragons contact us

Regardless of our intentions we agree that>>>The road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions”


We received E-mails from a person that has a 700+ gram, 22” yearling that her Vet says is one of the healthiest, nicest Dragons he has seen. She thanks us, and tells us it is due to whatever we may be doing, or quality of Breeders, and is really not concerned about Adeno just wants to be informed Then we see that same person post and criticize us>> we get mixed messages & frustrated!

We also know that certain illnesses may not show up instantly, and people may not be aware, nevertheless with all the innuendo’s , rumors, accusations there must be substance, evidence, proof of the unhealthy Dragons we supposedly are distributing Where are they> let those people) who obtained them from us. (DIRECTLY from those people)

REGARLESS OF HOW LONG WE HAVE BEEN DISTIBUTING
WE HAVE TO HAVE PEOLE “CUSTOMERS THAT HAVE OBTAINED DRAGONS FROM US THAT ARE NOT HEALTHY, SICK , ILL DIED, OR CONTAMENATED THEIR OTHER ANIMALS Who are they???


>>>WE COULD HAVE JUST IGNORED THE INITIAL POST, THE RESULTS WE RECEIVED ETC AND OST LIKELY THE POST WOULD HAVE DIED, YET WE CHOSE AND NOW STILL CHOOSE TO KEEP IT ALIVE.

HOPEFULLY THROUGH THE WEEKEND MORE PEOPLE WILL READ ABOUT THIS AND CONTACT US. OR POST.

ANY TIME YOU ARE DEALING WITH LIVE ANIMALS WE KNOW THERE WILL BE A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE THAT WE BECOME ILL, CONTACT AN INFECTION OR DIE UNDER THE BEST OF CIRCUMSTANCES> We ourselves have had them.

WHERE ARE THOSE SICK, INFECTED ILL, OR DEAD DRAGONS WE SOLD.

WE BEG YOU TO COME FORWARD. < (AGAIN DIRECTLY NOT A HE SAID SHE SAID, OR I SPOKE TO THE LAB AND LAB SAID ETC)
WE PROMISE NOT TO ATTEMPT TO HUMILIATE YOU, OR DISCRET YOU.

Find those Sick, unhealthy, or dying Dragons we are distributing. Find even a below average mortality rate, disease rate, etc. Help us find them directly, >not by hearsay!

SELF

To be nobody but yourself,
in a world which is doing its best,
night and day,
to make you everybody else,
means to fight the hardest battle
that any human being can fight -
and never stop fighting.
- E.E. Cummings


Sincerely
Bruce Kalish

Cheri

It's Bruce, yes me Bruce, not Jon. Yet all of the Sunshinedragons Team are in aggreement.

We posted again. We will Continue posting until we get to the bottom of this. Our intentions and Integrity are honarable. Our Dragons are some of the healthiest most sought after at a more than fair Price Value of any Bearded Dragons in the industry.

Everyone at sunshinedragons is proud of the results, as well as the learning experience weare getting and giving.

We have a Charity Division, and may need some charity ourselves. Neverthelss we will not succumb to innuedos, rumors or have our integrity attacked with unfounded allegations.

We will do what is necessary to improve the education, as well as quality of bearded dragons in the market.

You and others may doubt our sincerity and passion, nevertheless we have nothing to prove to anyone except ourselves, and to ourselves we have nothing to prove.

We appreciate your bringing the Adeno topic to such a highly publicized level. Maybe now more research, by a wider variety of people will be done, and the results of that will only make it better for quality Breeders like ourselves and many other quality breeders we highly respect even the ones we may not know.

We will attempt to continue to reach out to the entire Veterinarian community to study all reptiles, yet especially the Bearded Dragon.

Reptiles and even the popular Bearded Dragons are one of the most unknown, unresearched, category in the country.

We appreciate your help in expanding interest ot more than the few that take an interest.

If it means Sunshinedragons or myself (Bruce Kalish) have to take personal unfounded attacks, or innuedos, as well as Questions about the The Health of our colony and Dragons we distribute we are willing be listen to the rumor mills if it will help to improve the future of Bearded Dragons and all Reptiles.

We appreciate the engaing discussion, and invite any legitimate questions about the health of not only Sunshinedragons Breeding yet all breeding, andhealth of the animals themselves.

How we decide to run the company may always be contoversial yet we will never allow it to interfer with our dedication, passion or health of our PETS.

The Best to You Always,

Bruce Kalish/ Sunshinedragons

Bruce, Lets just break this down, First off, If it has legs I don't own it except my dog, snakes are my thing. But that is a different story for a different time. I don't have a dog in this fight, But the reason I am posting is that ( No offence) you do seem to be extremely long winded in your posts and its all in circles HMO All I have seen was a e-mail that was posted a few times over...Why not just post a "Vet" report saying your beardies are clean ?? Words are cheap, Pictures speak loud and clear. I'm sorry but it pisses me off when people sell diseased animals, then try to justify it with long winded words and nothing more.

No offense intended Bill, but this situation is not that cut and dry. It has not even been proven that an animal that tests positive for adeno can be considered "diseased". Much, much more research needs to be done on this virus and it's affects on bearded dragons. I agree that we may potentially have a big problem. But we don't KNOW that, and we need to avoid attacking each other in the meantime. It is counter poductive. We need to focus on the facts, and we need to share information and experiences with each other to try to solve this problem. I posted my opinion concerning this matter in another thread in the bearded dragon forum, you might want to read it. There are just too many questions that need to be answered before we can draw any definitive conclusions concerning the possible negative affects of adenovirus.

Jamie